Lion Man » Zion Wildlife Gardens

29-12-2006

I can tell you this right now, adelaide and monarto will not exhbit any white or color morph animals (with the exception of the dusky lories)

29-12-2006

As usual, you are completely right Patrick. It's a sad state of affairs though when zoos do use unusual color morphs to attract crowds, and sadly, they do attract visitors. I do agree that IF there's sufficient educational material available for the visitors, then there's a perfect opportunity to pass on some valuable conservation-based knowledge, but all too often, it's just about having something unusual, in an attempt to drag the crowds in, and very little attempt to pass on useful conservation messages to them.

Re: White Lions at Mogo
29-12-2006

Hi All,

When I was at Mogo at the end of 2004 when the original white lions were still cubs, one of the keepers told me that the plan was to breed the white lions with the fawns, and send the cubs back to South Africa, as the cubs, no matter what the colour, will carry the white gene.

So I was as surprised as anything to find out that the white lions had bred amongst themselves...I was under the impression that they were half-siblings?

Rayles

white animals
01-01-2007

Getting back to the topic .......

I reckon that if any zoo had any albino animal , or other colour than what most people will associate them with , the zoo can still use them to attract people .
I havent seen any white lions , tigers or whatever , and if they were at Wellington Zoo , I will at least want to have a chance to see them , regardless of whatever I may think of the issue . I have seen plenty of "normal" coloured big cats in my 40 something years of life .....

People will go to the zoo if they are assured of seeing "exotic" wildlife -- whatever they consider exotic in their own minds -- even if it is to see a stripeless zebra ( my guess it will look something like a horse ? )

One of the responsibilities of zoos nowadays is to inform the public of conservation measures -- or the consequences of the failure to do so
Hybrids , albinos etc can be used to show this point , if the zoo is savvy enough in its educational programme .

This is one thing that Aucklands zoo is trying to develop -- and they are looking at the issue further than just conservation of wildlife , but embracing the conservation of the whole world .

01-01-2007

whoa go buddy! older women. maybe its time we changed your name to zoo_man!! hey?

01-01-2007

Patric/Mark/anybody. I'm interested to know where these Barbary Lions have originated from?
Patrick is right in that several zoos claim to have Barbaries without any real evidence. And now(2006) its been published that scientific examination of the genetypes shows that even the ones at Rabat Zoo, Morocco(the Kings collection) AREN'T from Barbary Lion descent. The Pure Barbary has been identified -from known Barbary museum specimens-as having gene haplotype 11, quite close to the Asian lion(Halotype 10) The ones at Rabat(or at l east those bloodtested) seem to be descended from lions from areas of CentralAfrica. Port Lympne's Barbaries are from the Moroccan line too. Two of them were blood tested too, with the same result, so they are similarly probably not pure.

It seems currently there aren't any genuine Barbary lions, or lions with known Barbary blood which can be proved as such, in any zoos anywhere. I'd love to hear differently though.

how many subspecies...
01-01-2007

i've read that ALL african lions are so recently diversified from one ancestor that many scientists really only recognise them all as one race - the African Lion panthera leo leo, the only other subspecies being the Asian Lion panthera leo persica... some claim the barbary was indeed one and the same as the asian, once also found throught asia, the middleast and southern europe. i assume that would impy the sahara was the natural boundary that kep the two races from interbreeding. personally, i suspect the black shaggy manes reported to belong to cape and barbaries is somewhat a result of a cooler climate - hence why we see it popping up in so many "barbaries" in the north america and europe..

02-01-2007

grantsmb, I emailed the zion wildlife gardens in north Island New Zealand about their Lions twice asking them where they obtained their lion from and they never replyed so who knows. I did contact Port Lymyne a number of times last year about their Barbary lions (they answered each time) which were dna tested and found to be genetically different from all other lions worldwide, they did send me quite a bit of info on them which i can try and dig out for you if you like, or you ask them yourself as they seemed quite helpful.

02-01-2007

i cruised there website.sites for about 3 hrs last night, those 2 zoos are amazing, we need something like that in australia, including the 150 acre not so african experience. this is kool and funny, giraffe, zebra and black rhino among 5 african anteklope species, on the 150 acres with prezwaski horses, and many native europeon species and asian antelopes.

02-01-2007

Best animal collection I have ever seen, and i have seen a few.

Barbariy Lions.
02-01-2007

Patrick- yes, I think its accepted Barbay and Asian Lons were more closely related as were all lions living north of the Sahara, examination of the genes of museum specimens shows this to be so.

Also,as you say, any male lion living in a cold climate will or can grow a big shaggy mane so it looks superficially Barbary, hence many of the claims. They have found about ten other characteristics which seperate the(apparent) Barbary from other lions- but of course they are all minor ones like eye colour, skull shape, colour of hair, etc and all difficult to pin down & prove.

Mark.- I'd be interested in what Port Lympne told you about their lions. I spoke to the keeper about them a few months ago- he said they never had the results of the DNA tests, and sort of admitted that no-one really knows how pure their lions are. I suspect the info you received is 'zoo propoganda' rather than hard fact- the science now shows the lions in the Moroccan Kings Collection are NOT Barbary and that they have the genetic code of lions from SOUTH of the Sahara.

I think most zoos keeping 'Barbary Lions' are still keen to keep the myth alive- but the science sadly in no way supports it.

I'd be interested to read what Port Lympne say on this matter.

02-01-2007

I haven't visited this part as I didn't have time and it costs extra. What they have done is open up the private area where they used to keep all their surplus Asian hoofed stock and then added some common African animals which were surplus or needed homes from other zoos(zebra/gnu/giraffe etc) and call it the 'African Experience'. You go around in a large converted truck and stop off for a while in the middle. It is very much an extra money-making endeavour to help fund the upkeep of all the animals they have- Port Lympne in particular suffers from a location way out in the countryside without any big city nearby to bring them much needed hordes of visitors...

02-01-2007

The results were published in ( i think, international zoo news ), if you scan the net you can find it, i have seen it on there, the same results were sent to me some months ago from PL.

03-01-2007

mark-okay, I've seen that Barbary lion article, already, it was published by a Japanese scientist, a Dr Namogochi/Yamogochi? It was done in conjunction with a 'Barbary Lion project' which seems to have folded since then. This is now quite old(2002) info.
Together wih an Oxford University team, he published NEW scientific info in Feb 2006- in which he identified the various lion genotypes from different parts of Africa and, very briefly reported the results of DNA tests on the lions- according to his research it revealed that the existing 'Barbary' lions don't carry the correct genotype anymore. The test they use involves a difference only shown in the female DNA as it stated " the findings show the Moroccan lions tested are not from Barbary stock in the maternal line" (or similar words)

I think Port Lympne and other 'Barbary' zoos don't want to know these findings, as it means breeding their current Barbary lions is pointless. Also,I was told there's no where they be realistically be reintroduced into the wild, but that's a different issue.

Barbary Lion Project.
03-01-2007

Actually the name of the Barbary Lion specialist is Nobuyuki Yamaguchi.
The idea was that his scientific work on this subspecies(?) would be funded by a charity called Wildlink International, whose 'Barbary Lion Project' would raise funds for the scientific work to be done on the Lions. The Oxford Wildlife Research Unit would do the DNA testing required.

Then 'Wildlink' seemed to disappear without trace- Dr Yamaguchi has been carrying on without outside funding for as long as possible, but there are fears that the project is virtually at a standstill. A place in Morocco was even chosen where any suitable lions could be reintroduced into a semi-wild existence.

But the latest 2006 info seems to indicate that so far NO lions carrying the genes of the Barbary are known to exist. Of course, only a very few of the possible candidates have actually been tested, so its still an open situation.

Port Lympne's 'Barbary' lions stem from the Moroccan lions- which were previously thought to be the most 'pure' of the possible Barbary strains, but now it seems they are no more Barbary than any other lions, which is a disappointment. As there were still wild Barbaries alive in North Africa in the early years of last century, its not impossible there are still lions carrying Barbary blood living somewhere in zoos, but if so, they haven't been proved to exist yet...