bear breeding

27-08-2008

Well, unfortunately it turned out to be pretty easy to find examples on how zoos breed animals and then kill the off-spring. A few net searches were enough. Below you find reports on the subject, concerning some very reputable Western zoos. Note that the information comes from mainstream media, not animal rights sources.

First, though, please check the link to another thread on this forum that Docend24 supplied us with. In it, too, the subject of eutahanasia in zoos are discussed:
http://www.zoobeat.com/109/berlin-bit-bother-15100/

And then to my own findings:

Example from my “home zoo” – Copenhagen; young tigers euthanized:
The Copenhagen Post


A similar example, this time lion cubs, in Basel Zoo in Switzerland:
Swiss zoo culls endangered lion cubs - Telegraph

A quote from Toronto Zoo´s policy on euthanasia: “The humane culling of animals should take place at times that approximate natural processes of “biological crossroads” such as birth, weaning or the leaving of the family group.”
Toronto Zoo > About the Toronto Zoo > Press Information


Nuremberg Zoo, Germany (see the end of this article, that mainly deals with another subject):
Berlin zoo accused of profiting from slaughter | Environment | The Guardian

Also:

Of course it is easy to find similar info on animal rights activist´s web sites. But I suspect that many on this forum may think such sources are doubtful, to say the least. However, I will use one example. It discusses the killings of bear and tiger cubs in Swiss zoos, see the text below the headline “SUNDAY NEWSPAPER: 3 BEAR CUBS SHOT DEAD IN BASEL, 2 TIGER CUBS PUT TO SLEEP IN ZURICH Why? “:
THE BIG LIE ABOUT NOAH'S ARK ZOO


Again:
I don´t oppose the existence of zoos. If I did I wouldn´t spend a lot of time on this web site. But I feel we must be able to debate all possible issues concerning zoos.

27-08-2008

Without reading each and every article that you have presented, I don't doubt that there are plenty of cases of animals that have been bred in zoos and then euthansed. My point was - what was the reason behind both the breeding and the euthanasing. Were the animals euthanased due to an accidental breeding (and no home found for the surplus individuals)? Or were the animals bred on purpose for PR purposes, extolling the zoo's virtues of breeding endangered species, and then euthased due to a lack of space or homes? The answers to both questions would, in my mind, carry different weights.

27-08-2008

Firstly Dan, it comes across that you are only taking this one side and none of your post have acknowledge the other side to all these stories.

Right so on a handful of articles you have found, suddenly it’s rife within western zoos! Be interesting to hear how many articles you actually found. Am not surprised you have found some articles quickly considering it's something that would get high profile news.

Found on one of your links posted. Death is something zoos have to deal with; it also sometimes has to decide that an animal should not live anymore. I have also struggled to find anything in your links posted stating that the cubs where breed to increase gate admissions?

I understand that in a very worst case scenario a perfectively healthy animal may need to be put down. As I said before there will be a few cases in zoo's as there is so many of them in the world and not all zoo's are run by people who manage the animal properly and that MISTAKES can happen. I read in one of the articles they controlled births by drugs and separation, but did not like to do this because of animal welfare.

We need to read a bit more between the lines and not jump either way! Every story has two sides and well Dan you seemed to be focused on pushing your point on us that not many people on these forums will appreciate.

We accept a well thought out point of differing opinions.

27-08-2008

Thanks for the replies!

Let me answer by using my "home zoo" as the example - Copenhagen. I live in Sweden, but as a child I visited Copenhagen Zoo a couple of times with my parents. This was in the beginning of the 1960s. As an animal lover, I was amazed to see lions, elephants and hippos with my own eyes - for the first time in my life. I did not reflect on the fact that the great cats were housed in a classic "Carnivore House" building of the kind that we now regard as totally obsolete.

15 years later i was a grown up and happened to move to the south of Sweden and could therfore start visiting Copenhagen Zoo as much as I wanted. By this time the zoo had started to modernize in small steps; the old "Carnivore´s House" was thankfully demolished and replaced with outdoor, landscaped enclosures for the big cats.

Fast forward another 30 years and in one of these enclosures live a pair of Siberian tigers. They continually mate and new litters of tigers are born. I don´t see any reasons for mating these two tigers unless the lives ot the off-spring is secured. The latest litter, three males, have just been transfered to Borås Zoo in Sweden. The former litter, two brothers, wasn´t so lucky: they were killed. Come to think of it: I have actually watched these two beautiful cats play on several occasions.

It makes me very uncomfortable that they were killed. Why were they bred, I ask?

27-08-2008

Your barking up the wrong tree asking us! The best place would be to contact the zoo, as they will hold all the facts.

27-08-2008

Not a very good answer, considering we are discussing a principle.

27-08-2008

I know that there are to many lions in European zoos. Maybe there are also to many tigers, or to many non pure-blooded? In the past many zoos just put some tigers together without asking themselfs if the two are of the same species. Malayans, Siberians, Indians, all are mixed up. Today, the zoos are trying to keep it pure blooded but that's very difficult with all those mixed-descendants.

27-08-2008

Dan,

I see no proof of your claim: that zoos breed bear and lion cubs just for profit from visitor attendance and it happens commonly.

Simply - if you want to present animal management as profiteering from killing animals, you are wrong.

Animals are occassionally killed. Breeding management is tried. But animals are not clockwork toys and you cannot sit and say exactly how many will be born, raised, die and will be housed next year. Zoos try their best, but I perfectly believe Basel zoo director that 3 male lions are impossible to house, but he might find room for a pair.

For hoofed animals, reasoning is that meat for predators come from other hoofed animals bred in much worse conditions.

If your principle is that cute big-eyed young animals should not die and be eaten by predators, teach lions to eat tofu.

27-08-2008

Dan, many people have answered in principle why animals are bred when they have no place to go.

But you seem to just want the answer to the specific explain you have found!

Many people have explained that the breeding may have been an accident, or a result of bad management. Reading your specific answer this seems to be the case.

Many zoos don't house enough room to separate tigers and lions.
1) Tigers don't seem to mind company of others even thou they are solitary in the wild. I don’t blame zoo for providing enough room for a couple and small cubs as it makes room for another species.

2) Lion's live naturally together and so zoos replicate this to benefit the animals. So therefore births are likely to happen.

Similar situation with bears and the likes of orangutans (but due to the long inter birth interval there are never really any accidental birth's).

Herd animals also are hard to manage breeding wise, but that why zoos hold bachelor groups.

Any chance on you providing us with the rest of your findings on your search for other cases? Like total of cases you found from reliable sources?

27-08-2008

Well said Jurek7, I forgot about the recommendations from the stud book keeper to breed certain pairs.

Statistic's show us that for breeding program to gain enough animals for next generation of animals to continue its survival in zoos, that some will not be successful.

Therefore it is probably best practice to get 7 zoos to try instead of the optimal number being 5 to gain enough offspring. Therefore sometimes there can be a surplus on animals. Studbooks are managed carefully but nature doesn’t play by the same rules.

27-08-2008

I have, among else, provided you with these publicly made statements:

"...we simply have too many of them in the zoos and there just wasn't room for these two." Assistant director, Bengt Holst. Copenhagen Zoo.

"... the lion enclosure was not big enough for them..." Thomas Jermann, curator. Basel Zoo.

Then don´t breed them, I say!

Taun wants me to provide more examples, Yeah, right... as if this subject was of interest to the general public and our daily news were overflowing with news on the subject.

27-08-2008

Although Dan can be overzealous and emotional I really don't like what I read. Especially in endagered animals cases under EEP. For me this is unjustifiable.

27-08-2008

You’re dodging providing real proof! Because there is no proof that loads of zoos are breeding animal to get people in there, only to kill them in a few years.

Hmm... let me see, did the Knut story reach your country? As it certainly made big news in the UK and that was all over one animal in a zoo. So I think zoos killing animals on a yearly basis because of lack of room would of made the news.

Bascially your thread lacks any real evidence to confirm your theory.

27-08-2008

Most people on this forum know that the Amur Tigers are at capacity within the EEP. Therefore individual’s zoos need to follow the studbook keeper recommendations carefully, but these are actually that only recommendations and each zoo does not need to follow them. With the population at Full-capacity some zoos are turning to more endangered tigers, because they can breed from these and they will have homes for the cubs.

If you ask me it's a case of bad management or mistake at Copenhagen Zoo, therefore this situation arisen.

27-08-2008

Sorry, but what kind of proof do you expect? Do you want a zoo director to confirm that? Come on, nobody sany would do that.

I understand you. We both have a home zoo which would never do that so it is hard to believe it would even happen somewhere. But it is obvious that making profit is an essential part of the mantioned cases. Sadly.