big animals in city zoos...

21-12-2007

No kiang, that's not just the simplified main point.

21-12-2007

Kiang,

It is size of enclosure, not a zoo, which counts.

Many European zoos built very spacious exhibits despite small area of the zoo overall.

Emmen zoo is just 8 ha (Antwerp - 10 ha, London - 10 ha), but has very good exhibits for breeding groups of giraffes and elephants. I must say, that these two paddocks together occupy maybe a third of the zoo area.

Similarly, Cologne (20ha) has now 2 ha Elephant-park, larger than elephant area in Berlin Tierpark. Leipzig has sizable elephant area, and devoted a quarter of zoo area for great ape "Pongoland" etc.

I think this is direction to go for many more zoos. Requires just levelling of many old enclosures.

21-12-2007

this is such an interesting topic.....im a bit of a fence sitter on this once. with species like elephants space is a great thing but at the risk of being shot down by the proponents of maximum space i will say that I believe what is within the space is as important as the ammount itself.
with elephants in particular in mind, Melbourne and Taronga Zoo have created excellent elephant enclosures. these enclosures could probably both be improved upon and in time will, i reckon be expanded. but for the time being they are great facilities. in particular Taronga's new enclosure isnt much bigger than the old exhibit; there are now 5 elephants in the same ammount of space previously dedicated to two. but the balanced herd strucutre and copious ammounts of enrichment provided, as well as the variabiity of the recreated environment has resulted in a display which draws the crowds like nothing else. combined with a daily regime of outside walks these animals are doing very well, perhaps as well or if not better than their counterparts at WPZ. (an open range facility).
as i mentioned in a previous post many exotic species in Australian zoos are dying out, bad in some ways and good in others, such as freeing up space for fewer species. almost all of our majo urban zoos in this country are quite big and in contrast to European zoos have few heritage structures to impede expansion. on the balance of this argument i think zoos would do well to design exhibits around keystone species like elephants, rhino, hippo, great apes, bears and big cats and base smaller exhibits around them, tied together by particular themes.

21-12-2007

I strongly disagree that the elephant facility in Taronga is "great" for the time being. The enclosure has a little bit more then 2.000 m² and that is way smaller then far most new elephant enclosures built in Europe in the last years. And there are reasons why all these zoos in Europe (and some in the US) are dedicating so much more space for elephants. I agree that it is very important what is in the space, especially for animals which don`t like open space like monkeys, apes, big cats ect. But for elephants, rhinos, hipps and giraffes, space DOES matter. Regarding elephants, enrichment possibilities are very limited when the elephants can overlook and explore the hole paddock in about 2 seconds and with very few steps. They can`t go away from each other in just 2.000 m² when there are problems in the herd. 2.000 m² is too small to support grass; just look at the Taronga yard now, all the nice fresh green grass is already gone. The elephants destroyed it in a few months. And it will be extremely difficult for the keepers to encourage hem to walk enough to stay healthy in long-term without taking them out of the enclosure for walks. Yes now it`s possible with the females but what if one of them starts to attack keepers in a couple of years? This has happened too often in US and european zoos. And the biggest mistake Tarongs made in my opinion is that they are building the bull enclosure in a place where it is impossible to connect both yards, which would give both the female herd and the male twice the space and much more diversion and enrichment possibilties.

The Melbourne elephant is better in my opinion because with the 3 yards, the keepers can shift the elephants around and give them every day something different to explore.

I think it`s ridiculous to argue that both facilities can be expanded in the future. Sorry, both zoos just spend dozends of million of dollars to create state of the art exhibits. You should think that the result should last more then just a few years, don`t you?

22-12-2007

Agreed that 2000m2 is small for elephants.

There is hope the herd entertains each other.

22-12-2007

Why should animals like "monkeys, apes, big cats ect." not "like" "open space", wheras for "elephants, rhinos, hipp(o)s and giraffes, space DOES matter"? One should not make an artificial separation here, even if the right amount of "space" for the display of the animal's natural behaviour differs greatly from species to species (think of the Greater Chevrotain as an extreme example that seems to breed better in smaller than in larger exhibit, or of the Patas monkey as a open Savanna species; besides: do firstly mentioned species really need less "space"?). The size of the enclosure, or rather, more importantly: the actual size of the area which can be used by the animals is only one of several factors defining the quality and aptness of the exhibit. Said larger mammals simply need more "space" in a zoo because of their greater size; the correlation of the animal size and that of its enclosure is in their case much more obvious even to the untrained eye. Secondly, said large mammals naturally can use fewer levels of their exhibit in comparison to f.e. a climbing or flying species. Nevertheless, apt "space" DOES matter for ALL species - no special treatment for anyone, no matter what size they are.

And about expanding expensive elephant enclosures ( yes, I noticed: too many alliterations...): this is unfortunately the destiny of actually pretty every zoo building-being built for a (quite often needlessly) high amount of money, only to be rebuilt or even destroyed in the future to fit the then current animal husbandry and presentation concepts.

22-12-2007

@ Sun

What does f.e. mean..?

22-12-2007

For example?

22-12-2007

Ah yes that would make sense...

22-12-2007

same as e.g.

22-12-2007

by the end of next year taronga will have finalised its bull elephant facility, doubling the space available to the elephants to more than 4000 square metres.
there is a section of the zoo earmarked for an asian highlands precinct to be built in the next few years-it sits adjacent to wild asia and could be connected to the elephant barn. if taronga decided to expand into this part of the zoo it would again enlarge the exhibit space, and its a feasible idea considering most of the species earmarked for the asian highland zone are now going to be phased out of ARAZPA institutions. exhibits for snow leopards and tahr are already in place, so this area i am thinking of is essentially freed up.
on the grass comment......i dont think anyone expected the grass to hold up to the impact of 5 elephants, but i dont think it makes it a bad exhibit, just not as pretty as it was before the animals moved in. i dont think grass is 'needed' for breeding, look at chester zoo for example. the elephants have fresh browse every day and are surrounded by lush vegetation, and of the 2000 metres of exhibit, the whole thing is terraced, essentially creating 2 seperate exhibits, increasing the level of visual interest for the animals. what the elephants recquire is a largish exhibit which they have, exercise and enrichment opportunities, stimulation from the surrounding exhibits and a stable herd structure. the fact that our climate in Australia is so mild does not negate the animals need for space, but it does mean that the animals dont have to have as much space indoors to compensate for the winter months when they cant really go outside.
your point about the animals temperment is a valid one.....no one knows what will happen. but taronga spent a hell of a long time selecting the animals on the basis of temperment and ability to forge a herd, and the animals have a strong connection with a stable and highly skilled keeping team who are employing cutting edge management/husbandary techniques. i am confident that the animals will continue to be able to walked out of their exhibit in the future, with the obvious exception of the bull.
if Taronga's elephant team can foster and nurture this bond with their animals than there is no reason to suspect that walking the cows down to the bulls paddock every day couldnt happen wiell into the future.

personally, my vision for taronga zoo does not include animals like giraffes and rhino. when it comes down to megavertebrates id only keep elephant, river hippo, big cats, bears and great apes. with species like giraffe, rhino, zebra and antelope being relocated permanently to Western Plains Zoo, giving the fewer species more room. id spread the asian elephant across the entire middle section of the zoo, and change the current african waterhole exhibit into an immersion exhibit for gorilla, hippo and small primate. once again, as with elephants, exciting maxi exhibits could be centred around one or two large, charismatic species.

23-12-2007

yassa - i think thats a good point. apart from the fact that i think its justification enough to be opposed to small exhibits simply becuse i belive they are boring (no matterhow enriched) for the animals, the excercise issue is a big one for the elephants. whilst i know the zoos try very hard to keep the animals in shape, i doubt they get as much exercise as they should..

its worth noting that whilst there is an expansion option for melbourne (if they went into the current giraffe paddock) niether zoo has really planned for it and it is going to become a significant problem.

why?

becuse neither taronga or melbourne have room for many more elephants and they will be seriously put out if either zoo produces a male calf.

its a fact that despite what has been constantly reiterated to the public, neither zoo has real plans to develop a "stable muligenerational herd". that is a lie.

expect to see herds split, as non-breeding females are sent off to fulfill display purposes at other zoos like auckland.

23-12-2007

[quote=patrick

becuse neither taronga or melbourne have room for many more elephants and they will be seriously put out if either zoo produces a male calf.

its a fact that despite what has been constantly reiterated to the public, neither zoo has real plans to develop a "stable muligenerational herd". that is a lie.

expect to see herds split, as non-breeding females are sent off to fulfill display purposes at other zoos like auckland.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you Pat, if the herds at both zoos do grow they will become split because of the space issue, one thing they could do is to have another herd at both WPZ and Werribee where bulls could be moved in or out as needed, some of the Uk/European zoos are moving breeding bulls around now as needed, I as you would of liked to of seen these herds sent out to both open range zoos to start with instead of the city zoos, however since this is not the case rotating the bulls to an open range herd gives them more options and much more needed space which as we know is so important with elephants, the WPZ has an area already there for Asian elephants so cost wise maybe very little would have to be spent building another exhibit.

On another note having a few more animals out at the open range zoos could mean a better chance for breeding for the National herd and more bloodlines.

23-12-2007

Dont know whats happening to the Diana Monkeys . But will try and find out! I am a student at Newquay college in Zoological Conservation , and we are always i the zoo as its next door.

23-12-2007

I think Yassa's example was simply saying that large 'open space' (i.e. space for space's sake, with nothing in it) can be wasted on animals like great apes because they have no use for it. Being a rainforest animal, they are used to enclosed spaces, so even though they should have access to a large area, it really ought not be 'open'. The area provided should be designed to stimulate the animals.

In the case of large animals, giraffes and rhinos for example, (animals used to living in large open areas) the space itself is a form of stimulation because it gives them chance to move more freely (or not just a 'chance to'- it actually forces them to exercise). Its not purely a question of size, but largely a question of behaviour.

I hope I have not put words in your mouth, Yassa. Is that what you meant?