David Hancocks on Elephants......

23-06-2006

see? i knew you guys felt the same at heart.

i just figure that the opposition to the import has become such a big problem for the zoo's now, that they might have to start acknowledging that they made a mistake - and a very bloody costly one at that.

as mark said - we where claiming to be leading an example in elephant care, yet in actual fact we were lagging behind.

and might i say, what a shame that is too. melbournes facilities from a management point of view really are excellent. the barn is massive, and they have paid attention to details that seem lacking in the taronga barn, such as making sure it has huge amounts of natural light. the melbourne barn is actually a really nice big airy open space. apparently bong-su's head almost scraped along the roof of the old one and the keepers always complained of itbeing too dark and dingy so with the new one super high ceilings and lots of skylights seemed a must. climate control, rubber heated floors and features such as lots of keeper safety features (elephants can have either direct or protected contact) are all there.

outside, each of the three paddocks feature gates allowing access to the other two. one paddock with a small pool and its ajoining seperate "bull barn" is reserved primarily for bong-su. another features a deep water swimming pool large enough for all the elephants to submerge themselves at once. the largest paddock has a mud wallow. all outdoor spaces feature sand piles, which the elephants love lying down and sleeping in, scratch posts in the form of dead trees mounted on underground tires to that the move when you push them and plenty of toys and spare logs etc. the zoo made a point of making giving the elephants varying terrain, figuring the walk up and down the hills is good excercise. the female elephant is walked around the zoo during opening hours and also performs demonstrations, (which are based on natural behavious) where she moves logs around and does stretches etc.. this bagan some years ago as part of the zoos program to get keppah to loose weight and get fit - which has been a success.

the zookeepers tell me that both elephants, who came to the zoo as babies from malaysia some 20-something years ago, are actually really quite docile animals. even bong-su is apparently very calm for a bull - though the zoo don't risk any real direct contact.

anyhow, my point is that the facilities and design of the melbourne enclosure are fantastic. i just wish they had access to a 5-10 acre paddock as well.

traongas facilties, from what i have seen aren't even that great. relying on having to walk the female elephants to the bull paddock is not exactly a smart move. what if they find that one of the females becomes unsafe to handle? the zoo will not be able to introduce her to the bull. likewise the bull will not be able to enjoy the facilities of the females for a change of environment. at melbourne suey (BS) can have access to all the same stuff, and without having to be in the same enclosure as the females if need be.

oh well....

23-06-2006

Yes I do agree with most of what you do say Pat I only want our zoos to be outstanding in every way, lets have the BEST exhibits, lets give them the BEST care, we have heaps of room (great), we have heaps of sunshine compard to northern zoos (great), we can grow anything in this land (great).

So just maybe as most of our zoos are (Goverment zoos) which I think could be a big part of the problem, as most of us are aware all levels of Goverment from local, state and federal are mostly pen pushers, this could mean that most of the people in this area are not real ZOO PEOPLE without a real understanding and a REAL passion for this sort of undertaking, a case in point is the Indian rhino exhibit at the Western plains zoo where the keepers suggestions and veiws were ignored and now some what later down the track are now upgrading this exhibit to what it should have been at the start.

I say LETS LIFT OUR GAME OR get someone who CAN DO IT RIGHT, lets all look at the outstanding elephant breeding centres in North America and Europe and see what they ARE DOING RIGHT, If the Yanks the poms and the Euros can do it then WHY aren't we doing it too, I am sure we can, well i hope so. So come on Guys lets show the world WE CAN DO it and do it well. But please someone ( maybe Nigel) hes our man in NZ tell us Auckland zoo is not just going to let their two females elephants past into old age with out a real breeding attempt.

I ask you PLEASE as fellow members of Zoobeat to look at the Elephant Breeding centre which is named in my last port, this is the ONLY way to go.

23-06-2006

Please look at, The Ringling Bro's & Barum & Bailey Centre for Elephant Conservation, in Central Florida, USA.

24-06-2006

Mark,

The zoo environment in Europe dictates a minimum available space to a herd of elephants. This should be the drawing base to go out from. It however is not so that all zoos are open range: plenty of city zoos in Europe do have good elephant facilities or are in the process of upgrading them to standards conducive to elephant social behaviour and breeding.

Taronga should probably strive to keep to improve facilities at Taronga and develop the WPZ base as well. I hear that Heman is actually much older at 50? Is this correct? Than he might not be such a good candidate for breeding I am afraid. It would then be better to get a male of 12-18 range to breed from instead (preferably zoos would want to initiate breeding attempts a.s.a.p. Especially since I hear that at least 4-6 females are in prime breeding age groups. Perhaps the TAG within ARAZPA can move this thing forward?????

24-06-2006

Someone brought up the subject of allowing the bulls and cows to mingle when they wish, but this is not feasible at Taronga. A zoo in Israel has an excellent and yet very simple method of allowing free will, especially amongst the cows. Sometimes their bulls can get a bit aggressive with the cows and so it was viutal that they could get away from his attentions wghen they wanted. So as the bull was taller. A simple wire across the width of part of the very large enclousre kept him to one section but allowed the smaller cows to have free access.

So simple and yet so effective.

24-06-2006

Yes Jelle I do know that not all the Europern elephant herds are on open range zoo areas as I have been to a few zoos in that part of the world, but i feel since we do have some huge zoos here such as Western plains zoo, Monarto zoo, Werrbiee zoo and even the Australia zoo that it is better for them living there if we have the space for them so we can give them what we alreadly have. I not sure of the real age of Heman but there would be a few here that do know, If heman is past breeding age then as you say they should be looking for that least one other mature bull two would be better, Perth zoo did import three Asian elephants a few years ago and have since had some matings with them so the is at least one young bull here thats is breeding, I think its wait and see if she is pregant. I have heard that Bong su is furtile so maybe there is some hope with him as well, at least with AI, I agree with you that things here need to happen a.s.a.p, we need to play catch up as we are lagging way behind, if we do really want to breed elephants then we need to look at the zoos getting the best results and do as they do and get on with the job.

24-06-2006

heman is around 50 years old. Zoo_Boy could probably confirm his exact age. because of this he is not even considered for the CBP. bong-su (around 32) is very much breeding age and fertile. in fact he is a vital part of melbournes planned breeding program as they are not importing any additional males. one of the cows destined for melbourne however is in her early teens and the zoo is resting all immediate hopes on her.

for me the issue of whether there will be elephants at dubbbo and werribee is a given. there will be, because whilst there may be an argumant from the zoos that city institutions can provide for their small elephant herds of five, add just a few sucessful births and suddenly they are looking at housing a herd of seven, eight or more. i don't know how many extra stalls taronga built in their barn but i'de have a guess that like melbourne, they didn't really plan for more than a couple of extra elephants.

however, whether that will that see elephants move to the open range exclusively or whether we just end up with them at both is yet to be established.

24-06-2006

1. yes pat heman is around 50, giva take 1 or 2 years
2. yes tarngas barn is excaltyly like melbournes, thou from wht i hve seen on tv about melbournes, tarongas aint as good
3. bong-su, is the vital breeding animal for melbourne,
4.mek-kapah, was deemed infertile by reproductive experts
5. dubbo will never get more elphants i have been told numerous times, at the begining of thsi asian saga, it was taked about very seriously getting more africans, but wont happen, the only eles to come to austrlai now ill eb asian

has any one forgotten about perths eles, they have a male and 3 females, fantastic story, the male has just matured and he is starting to mate oldest female, i beleive perth may even have the first calf 'on the ground'

24-06-2006

To bad heman is over 50, he was a great looking bull in his day, Glad to hear that bong su is fertile great news.in regards to Perth zoos Asian elephants i saw them in 2000 and spoke to their keepers from what I was told the older female they had there alreadly is to old for breeding!, of the other two females which came to Aust with the young bull only one of them is going to be bred as the other has heath problems, so at the end of the day they only have one female who can breed. Another thing I was told at Perth zoo was the male was being trained to enter a steel crate because he was being shipped of to Fort Worth in Texas in the USA, (have photos) someone in charge said they did not want to breed them, looks like they had a change of heart. very luckly for us, Phew!!!!.

24-06-2006

Zoo_Boy, when i was talking about elephants at dubbo it was in context of the asians that may or may not be imported having to eventually be transported there from taronga. i wasn't really thinking about the prospect of western plains importing any just for themselves (african or otherwise).

the controversy here in australia has sparked a similar reaction in thailand and now, although in our country all legal appeals and attempts to stop the import have been exhausted, there is a movement starting in thailand now to stop them exporting the animals.

it was also a condition made by the supreme court, that if there was a feeling that taronga zoo was not providing for the animals, that they would be forced to move them to dubbo.

what i was essentially saying was that even if this import is allowed, i believe that the zoos will be forced, for one or more reasons to move them to an open range zoo within less than 10 years.

25-06-2006

Zoo_Boy,

So, all elephant males have been evaluated. That leaves a breeding male at Melbourne and one at Perth, isn't it. Perhaps Heman could be used for AI (this has been tried with an ageing bull at Amsterdam zoo before).

patrick,

Can you tell me which elephants are to be imported from Thailand (genetic make-up). That has not been all to clear for me.

I guess also that if the legislative has put forward that housing is prime, that one way or other the Asian elephants will be moved out to Dubbo. Perhaps they could have the Indian rhino at Taronga instead?

25-06-2006

jelle.

we have discussed the possibilty of heman breeding before on this forum, but if you look at him (there are photos on zooki-pah's webshots page) he's pretty old looking (and at 50 why wouldn't he be) and i don't think its been considered - nor is it really required with two other young bulls at melbourne and perth. both melbornes elephants and perths come from malaysia and thus are the same mainland subspecies elephas maximus indicus as the thai elephants (is that whatyou mean by gentic makeup?).

personally i think AI is stupid since elephants breed if you put them in the right social situations...

25-06-2006

To add another note: the age at first breeding is very important. Must be below 25 otherwise hormonal atrophy will set in the reproductive tract. On the other had the Ramat-Gan zoo for instance has a breeding female at 48. Several other cows (Kobenhavn and Rotterdam) are in their middle to late 30's. So, age may not be that important.

Whether or not elephants will breed is something of a lottery, I guess. What is important however is that ALL elephants of prime breeding age and those even in their 30-40's must be reproductively evaluated if the breeding programme is to have any true meaning. From that perspective the breeding programme can be moved forward. Also, it is imperative than to decided on a breeding and non-breeding location. Females that are deemed able to reproduce and not have access to a bull must be moved to a location where a proven bull is available for breeding (she may return to the zoo that is holding her in the first instant, but perhaps it is better to leave her long-term in a breeding capacity to increase the chances of reproductive success). Alternatively, take bull sperm and inseminate on site (this requires much technical skill and a restraining chute for the female to be handled (and not forget the training!!!).

25-06-2006

yeah, i'm aware about the need for elephant cows to become pregnant befor they hit their late 20's or generally their reproductive systems shut down. this is what has happened with melbourne cow, who is only 31(ish) but already sterile.

the situaion in australasia isn't quite the same as europe - remember we have only a handful of zoos with elephants. melbournes plan is to introduce the 3 new very young cows to the existing female in the hope of them bonding to form a small group. this situation worked well at perth who imported a 3 baby elephants (a male and two females) in the very early 90's and successfully bonded her with their existing (and only) much older female. personally, i see no reason why female elephants should be split from their bonded groups and sent out on breeding loan to other zoos. instead i think it should be the bulls that are transferred, since they are the ones that often live solitary in the wild. if the aim is to create strong bonded, multi-aged, family groups then i think it is both stressfull and unnesserscary to seperate females from one another - even short term.

here in australia the plan is to have 3 zoos all with one bull and 3-4 females. however with taronga importing such an immature male (and apparently at least one close to breeding age cow) i cannot make sense of what it is they are trying to do.

25-06-2006

patrick,



The current zoo stock is:
Melbourne
1.0 31 (fertile)
0.1 30 (post reproductive)

Perth
1.0 17 (fertile)
0.1 17 (fertile)
0.1 16 (not evaluated, just health issues, perhaps candidate for AI)

Dubbo
1.0 50 (not evaluated)
0.1 54 (post-reproductive)

Beerwah
0.1 ?
0.1 ?
0.1 ?

Do you have any indication as to exact age composition of the imports?

As to my remark regarding transfers. I meant that in the current situation it is a method for transferring females into breeding situations in Europe (where they M-F ratios are so diverse). I am not aware in what way the Ozzie elephants are bonded or those in Thailand (I suspect the latter a great deal more). If we follow your lead then the Thailand imports would be divided over 2 zoos with the third to take up the cows of breeding age that cannot be put with a male at their zoo. In Europe now, males travel to entire breeding groups and not to individual elephant females (that's far too costly and logistically a nightmare). Instead breeding males are designated at zoos and females termed reproductively able are put with one of these males. Thus, when breeding groups of females with matriarch get bigger they are split sideways with matriarch+daughter staying and daughter-daughter moving to new location. It is all an option and not a must, as far as I am concerned.