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Drowned apes

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by Animal, 1 Aug 2008.

  1. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    At the Hamburg-Thread we started, after in Hamburg drowned a Orang, a discussion about incidents with apes and water-moats.

    I also remember a Gibbon in Leipzig a few years ago...

    So, what do you know?
     
  2. johnstoni

    johnstoni Well-Known Member

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    in the UK:

    1) I think an orang died in the moat at Blackpool a few years ago.

    2) I have a feeling Penscynor lost at least one chimpanzee in its history through drowing.

    3) When Flamingoland opened the open-air extension to the old chimp house (not the current exhibit which is the old elephant house and paddock), one of the adult males climbed the dead tree on being released into the compound and fell off into the moat and drowned.


    In Ireland:

    Dublin have lost chimps, I think both on the original island and maybe two animals when the newer island opened in the african section...
     
  3. James27

    James27 Well-Known Member

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    Those figures are quite depressing.
    Will zoo's not learn?!
     
  4. taun

    taun Well-Known Member

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    That is one of the reason Chester wet for vertical walls instead of a moated outdoor enclosure. Much safer for the Orangutans
     
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  5. johnstoni

    johnstoni Well-Known Member

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    the site below discusses this issue with regard to modern german ape exhibits:

    http://www.leszoosdanslemonde.com/h...s/review_gorilla_1993_2003/review_gorilla.htm

    of the UK sites I listed, most were past mistakes and the zoos in question are now either closed or no longer house their apes in a moated situation. The most depressing for me is Blackpool as their orang exhibit was designed with a dry moat, which for some reason was filled with water a few years ago. Totally unnecessary when you consider how easy it would have been to have modified the already high walls or added hotwire.
     
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  6. Meaghan Edwards

    Meaghan Edwards Well-Known Member

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    Very sad :( In 1998, an Orang at the Toronto Zoo drowned after falling into a moat. A zoo visitor made an attempt to rescue him, but he later passed on. Some people were feeding them (a huge no no), a fight broke out and the little guy fell in.
     
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  7. zooman

    zooman Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    HI johnstoni,

    Really enjoyed reading the Geman link.
     
  8. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Last edited: 2 Aug 2008
  9. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Doesn't one of the new outdoor enclosures have a water-barrier at the front?
     
  10. CZJimmy

    CZJimmy Well-Known Member

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    It's not really a moat, it's more of a water source for the rocky waterfall. I doubt any Orang (or gibbon) could drown in it as it is reasonably small enough for them to climb out.

    [photo=10509;557;Orang_28.JPG]Orang Utan at Chester[/photo]
    [photo=10510;557;Gibbon_10.JPG]Lar Gibbon at Chester[/photo]
    [photo=10511;557;Realm_Of_The_Red_Ape_4.JPG]Realm of the Red Ape[/photo]

    The exhibit image shows the water barrier that is used.
     
  11. dragon(ele)nerd

    dragon(ele)nerd Well-Known Member

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    There is moats still in state of the art enclosures, Melbourne's new Orang-Utan sanctuary has some sort of moat,

    I can't really explain it stuck for words,
     
  12. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Thanks, I remember seeing something 'watery' but that looks safe enough...
     
  13. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    And in Europe too- many new designs still incorporate moats- because of the visual aspect...
     
  14. johnstoni

    johnstoni Well-Known Member

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    I think the more loose material you have in the enclosure, the more likely an escape over an electric fence. There are plenty of branches an orang could fashion to break/scale an electric fence in the Chester enclosure, wheras at monkey world, with electric fences, everything inside the compound is bolted down. I think there was a discussion on another thread where I was harping on about apes not having wooded exhibits with actual trees, and on reflection I would say the biggest liability is not tree damage, it's that a wooded enclosure is full of possible tools for escape....hence the need for high walls and a moat in many cases, possibly to prevent a walled enclosure resembling a pit. However Jersey and Port Lympne zoos in the UK have really good gorilla exhibits with no moat, and manage to be large enough as to not resemble a pit.

    Escapes which end in the death of the ape(s) are possibly the one thing worse for publicity than an ape drowning.....interestingly some of the same zoos mentioned that have had drowning incidents have also had escapes which resulted in shootings (penscynor, flamingoland etc)
     
  15. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    If you've read 'Chimpanzee Politics' about the big chimp colony at Arnhem Zoo, you'll know the chimps there frequently used fallen branches from the big trees in the enclosure as 'tools' usually as 'ladders' into the trees which were electrified at their base, but I think at least once some scaled the perimeter wall after using a propped-up tree branch...

    re drownings/shooting;

    Bronx New York probably experienced the worst time for an Ape to drown- right in front of a packed Sunday afternoon crowd. The 11 year old male Gorilla 'makoko' went to run along the raised concrete lip of the moat, missed his footing and tumbled in. He sank like a stone. As Lee Crandall(or someone) later wrote- 'that day we learned what the books didn't tell us'...

    shootings- these can be avoided if a zoovet can get there first before the 'hit squad' marksmen or armed police arrive. In the case at Dallas Zoo, the police unfortunately shot the unfortunate Gorilla dead. 'Bokito' at Rotterdam was luckier, the man with the dart gun got to him first.

    But I think with chimps there's often no option(as at Whipsnade last year) to shoot the animal dead. I think I would be more frightened of an adult(male) chimpanzee on the rampage than either a Gorilla or Orangutan...;)
     
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  16. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Frankfurt has now it´s apes just indoors, there are no outside-exhibits.

    Sadly apes are just like small children... And like them, they can drown in a puddle...
    And no one of you would let play his child alone in a garden, where is a just 20cm deep pond, or would you?!
     
  17. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I believe large outdoor enclosures are planned and the plans show at least part of the barrier to be water?
     
  18. gentle lemur

    gentle lemur Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    The new Budongo display for chimps at Edinburgh has a water moat on the southern (downhill) side of the paddock. At the edge there are boulders with fairly thick planting between them and I thought I could also see some of those hotwire 'sprays' that are used so liberally at the Regents Park gorilla display. Is this correct or did my eyes deceive me?

    Alan
     
    Last edited: 2 Aug 2008
  19. kiang

    kiang Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Alan you will need to give us a review of your trip to Scotland along with some of your fine pictures too.
     
  20. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Yes, I really enjoy your photos, they are excellent.:) (particularly that one of 'Steffi'...