Should bears be kept in zoos?

14-07-2009

I have visited several zoos in the UK, and have seen nothing in terms of reptile management that is very different from other European or American zoos.

14-07-2009

Well I can only think of a couple of UK zoos that would just "put a snake in a small box and throw in a dead rat once a week". I assumed that maybe reptiles had it worse in the US?

14-07-2009

I will (prematurely) stick my head out here and confirm what some of you may already have suspected: I am not sure that any wild species should be kept in captivity.

I am as keen in visiting zoos as any of you. Very interested in many aspects of that experience and all its implications. But in reality mostly for selfish reasons: I love to watch animals! (But I do not for a minute subscribe to the "conservation" argument.) And at the end of the day I am not certain that we humans have the right to keep (wild) animals in zoos.

One of these days I may try to muster what poor knowledge I have in the English language and try to express this philosophical question in a coherent thread of mine.

As for now: I would have needed the alternative "Maybe" to be able to vote.

PS
Please don´t ostracize me because of this post , I will go on contributing to the site in whatever way I can and very much enjoy it...

14-07-2009

I very much appreciate your philosophical stance and ambivalence. I do wonder, however, how you can simply dismiss the conservation value of zoos, since it has been both demonstrated (American Bison, Asian Wild Horse, Arabian Oryx, Nene, etc) and has increasing relevance for inspiring people like yourself into action?

14-07-2009

Well I agree that animals aren't meant to be in captivity, but whilst seeing as they are and that there are so many successfully bred then I don't think it should be stopped, as reduakari mentioned above, due to the conservation work that has been going on.
And Dan, stop playing the "I don't speak English well" card, I've actually met British people who speak it worse than you

15-07-2009

@reduakari:
I did indeed express myself very unclear on the subject and I will try to clarify.

I am ambivalent also as far as the concept of conservation goes and I have thoughts and questions such as these:

Isn´t “conservation” mainly a politically correct expression that has become an obligatory mantra for every zoo to use? (Those crappy cages in that "conservation centre" in The UK that we have debated, comes to mind.) What does it really mean? What is “true” conservation, anyway?

When, for instance, some of the types of rhino most probably go extinct in the wild in the near future, is it morally justified to keep them alive in zoos? If so, for what reason? For our amusement and entertainment? Or as “education”? In what way will we be educated? Will it stop us humans from eradicating other species? I don´t know.

You mention a number of examples where species gone extinct in the wild have been saved and reintroduced to the wild, the American buffalo for instance. But is it very likely that we will see many more examples like that in the future? I am pessimistic. Take Sub-Sahara Africa as an example. This part of the continent is totally disintegrating in every possible way – politically, socially, economically etc. Famine, disease, civil war and genocide. Most likely a great number of species will go extinct in the process. Is it justified to keep these species in zoos because of a most uncertain possibility that they may be reintroduced in the wild some time in the future? I don´t know.

In the rest of the world, the "success" and expansion of humans create similar effects on the fauna. Here it will most likely be even more impossible to reintroduce species extinct in the wild.

@ashely-h:
Thanks but you know what I mean: I spell words wrong and make all sorts of grammatical errors and my written English is basically very simple. In my own language I actually write rather good and therefore it irritates me that I cannot do the same when I debate on the net.

15-07-2009

Until allot more people say "this is not good enough" most bears. At a guess probably 95% will continue to live in what l personally would call unacceptable conditions in captivity.

So yes to all of you who may belive that bears should be kept in captivity on the provision that they are well looked after. The facts today are that they are NOT! With most going to end live out there life in the appaling conditions they are in today! Tommorow and every day after that. Just not acceptable.

So maybe instead of arguing that all animals in captivity deserve better. Obviously they do. The discussion on this thread is about bears. Today 95% of bears in captivity are in totally unaceptable conditions. Should they be in captivity? Of course not in my opinion.

I have not seen the "world class exhibits" so will not say they are totally unacceptable without personally seeing them.

15-07-2009

I would not say 95% of bears in captivity are suffering, at least in the U.S. I really don't even think the ones living in the outdated grottoes are truly suffering. They are still being provided for, given enrichment, and receive the best of care. That's not suffering.

15-07-2009

here are a few bear enclosures/exhiits from the gallery that i would class as being unacceptable, okay enclosures and really good enclosures:

Unacceptable:
Polar Bear enclosure
The one and only bad enclosure/exhibit at Skanes Animal Park: Bear enclosure no 1
Brown Bear enclosure at Luebeck Tierpark 2007
Polar Bear enclosure @ Schonbrunn Zoo, Vienna 19.04.07
Sloth Bear Enclosure
Cincinnati Zoo - American black bear grotto

okay/good enclosures:
Bear Enclosure
Brown bear exhibit no 2
Sloth Bear Exhibit
Black Bear Enclosure
bears dartmoor

really good:
http://www.zoochat.com/526/1-5-acre-...closure-92255/
Bears of the Cloud Forest photos
http://www.zoochat.com/423/ree-park-bear-lake-60900/
Scandinavian Wildlife Park - Polar Bear Park
Oregon Zoo - Black Bear Exhibit
Arctic Ring of Life - Detroit Zoo

16-07-2009

agreed and i think the same can be said for much of western europe.

16-07-2009

For bears, being out of sight of other bears seems more important than space.

I saw bears pacing in very naturalistic exhibits, and calm in smaller single exhibits. It is often very visible that bears try to keep as far away as possible from each other. Often when male moves, female goes to the opposite part of the exhibit and starts pacing at the edge.

16-07-2009

@foz:
I very much appreciated your classification scheme and your picture examples!

16-07-2009

By the way, the probably smallest and most depressing bear grotto probably wxists in my own "home zoo":

http://www.zoochat.com/419/brown-bea...e-5-5-a-68075/

And unlike what I wrote in the commentary to this picture, judging from my latest visit to the zoo a male bear still seems to be held in it. This enclosure is a great shame to Copenhagen Zoo and I am so glad that things will change within the next few years, as has been reported by forumster Toddy.

16-07-2009

The enclosure Dan links to looks like a paradise compared to the one at the Ellen Trout Zoo here in Texas. Proof?

Black Bear pit/grotto

That's it. That's all the bear has, and there are signs saying that it was rescued from inhumane conditions. I'm sure this bear would love to have some of the climbing structures (i.e. some rocks) that your zoo has Dan. By no means am I saying that what you have is a good example of a bear enclosure either.

16-07-2009

Even though I have been extremely critical of the innumerable amount of truly awful bear grottoes and pits that exist in zoos worldwide, on a happier note many of the very best, world-class exhibits in North America actually feature bears!

1- "Arctic Ring of Life" - Detroit Zoo (polar bears)
2- "Northern Trail" - Woodland Park Zoo (grizzlies)
3- "Russia's Grizzly Coast" - Minnesota Zoo (grizzlies)
4- "Asia Trail" - National Zoo (giant pandas + sloth bears)
5- "Oklahoma Trails" - Oklahoma City Zoo (grizzlies and black bears)