trouble with breeding elephants

26-04-2005

I can certainly understand why the government has these strict policies. I have heard of a few of these situations, others are interesting to hear. I realize it is very difficult to move animals to and from our two countries, I guess it was more a wish that these problems didn't exist and it would be fairly simple to transport zoo animals either way. It would be good for both countries, although I realize it's near impossibility. I have been to San Diego, and seen their koala collection, I want to say they now own around 80. They have many at the zoo, but then loan them to zoos around the country for periods of time to free up space for more koalas at the zoo. I was also fortunate enough to see all of the Tasmanian devils in the country while they were here. San Diego had a couple and so did Toronto. But the Fort Wayne Children's Zoo in Indiana (about an hour north from where I live) had a few as well. I'm glad I could see them before they all passed on. Brookfield is having a tough time breeding their echidnas, a pair have been introduced for over a year now and nothing has happened. I do think platypus are some of the neatest animals around and can't wait to get to Australia to be able to see one, but I have read a lot on their difficult husbandry, as you said.

platypus and echidnas....
27-04-2005

yeah platypus are interesting, the only two zoos who have ever bred them (heavllesville, a native animal zoo in melbourne and taronga zoo in sydney) both did so in enclosures that are out-door and almsost semi-wild. seems the trick is to just leave them alone. in fact, despite being so fragile, they are actually still quite common (though you can still consider yourself super-lucky if you see one) and many live in and around the rivers of melbourne city.

interesting fact; the most expensive animal to feed in melbourne zoo is not the elephant, tiger or gorilla but the humble platypus - i guess they do have an exclusive diet of shellfish!

echidna's are tricky too, though most zoos don't display them this way, i suspect you need a few males for each female. in the wild you can often see a "trail" of echidnas following eachother through the bush. they do this for days and it's actually a feamale on heat being followed by a a buch of potential suitors. i would expect they would be easier to breed if they were given larger enclosure sizes with more males to females so she could better choose her mate.

melbourne zoo are trying to breed their echidnas in this way, they share a very large out-door exhibit with the tree-kangaroos. taronga zoo has the only pair of endangered long-beaked echidnas in the world. unfortunately they have had no sucess with breeding this endangered species from new guinea.

i would like to see better co-operative breeding programs between US and australian zoos too. i know we have sent a few rhino's (as well as kangaroos) back and forth over the past few years.

here in austraila we actually cull kangaroos and koalas are so numerous on some offshore islands (where they have been introduced) that they are causing severe ecological damage.

the tasmanian devils are the worry at the moment, our largest native mammalian land predator is being decimated by DFTD (devil facial tumor disease). suddenly the population is droppingin tasmania so quickly that all the zoo's are attmpting breeding on the mainland as an insurace.

i have read much about invasive species both here and in the US and i find it strange that the laws are so relaxed over there. the everglades are now full of burmese pythons, caiman alligators, rhesus macaques, budgies (parakeets), african clawed frogs, iguanas, cunban anoles and just about anything else you can think of.

in australia it is illegal to own an exotic amphibian or reptile (other than an axolotol), though many natives can be kept - most with a small native licence fee.

still an old lady tripped over a boa constrictor in the street the other day and established colonies of red eared sliders started turning up all over queensland!

further response from Auckland Zoo re elephant project issue
30-04-2005

Nigel,
The purpose of the CMP (Captive Management Plan) is to utilise and help build the expertise in all areas of elephant breeding, hence this includes both natural and artificial measures. The region already works with a team of German specialist who have been extremely successful with the AI program of elephants in both North America and Europe.
The import of a bull into the facility does require modification to the exhibit and will require extension of the current footprint - which is all under discussion from both a strategic design and CAPEX availability stand point.
Maria

Please note that this is the response from Auckland Zoo after my asking for further explanation of their earlier response .
I do not neccessarily agree with it , but it will keep forum members informed about events on this side of the Tasman .
Jon and/or Patrick , do you know of the German experts that Maria is talking about ?

The other day Jay told me of Steve Irwins plans to house elephants at Australia Zoo - in a 125 acre enclosure ! That would be good if he can pull it off , despite his style and bravado etc .

30-04-2005

the melbourne zoo keeper mentioned a "team of specialists" that were going around assessing all the regions elephants for fertility. probably the germans you mentioned.

i knew of steve irwins plans for elephants ( i think he might have since bought the bullen's animals) and the enclosure sounds good. i don't know why, but something just doesn't sit right with me about australia zoo. addmittedly, i have not visited, but i think its the anthropomorphising of the animals and the "show" aspect that turns me off. somehow i feel it's marketed more as a theme park about animals and the irwin family than an actual zoo. as steve has made a name for himself being hands on - that's the theme of the park. i saw some of those photos on the website of the irwinesque keepers playing with the tigers. - a bengal tiger pouncing on a person looked very dangerous!

German Scientists and Steve Irwin
30-04-2005

The only German scientists that I am aware of are the ones that did the original AI procedure at the Indianapolis Zoo. They work at the Institute of Zoo Biology and Wildlife Research (IZW for short), in Berlin. The two main doctors were Dr. Hildebrandt and Dr. Goeritz. I am positive these are the guys involved in the process described by Melbourne, I mean how many elephant veterinary experts can be in Germany?

As for Steve Irwin, he was huge here in the States for a few years. He has a TV show and several spinoffs, and a Hollywood movie, so on and so forth. He really lost a lot of respect when he took his 6 month old son out into the crocodile pen and held him while feeding an adult saltwater. Believe it or not, I have yet to meet a zookeeper here that likes him, in fact, they hate him. However, I am on the opposite side of the fence. I don't always agree with his showmanship, there is a lot of show involved in what he does. But I think he adds the show to get his message across to visitors. Americans are drawn to flashy things, so a man capturing wild crocodiles is enticing. I'm sure he has inspired many kids to become involved with reptiles, and not just because you can wrestle with them.

One thing that you cannot question is that he has a gift. He has an uncanny ability to connect with animals and predict their behavior. Another thing that sets him apart is that he knows animals very well, many shows here on animals have adventurers who give incorrect information. Steve is very knowledgeable and I've never heard mistaken facts from him. i could go on and on about him because I've learned quite a bit about him, but the bottom line is that in my opinion (which again, is shared by few in the profession here) Steve has the best interests of the animals always at heart, and by watching the show the Crocodile Hunter, it is undeniably evident. He's at the top of his profession, both in showmanship and animal husbandry.

10-05-2005

There is a real good breeding herd of Asian elephants in Cambridge in Canada they have around 12 animals in there herd and are breeding them quite well, I got a tour off exibit from Charlie Gray who is the Manager of the herd, he had about four full grown Bull elephants, I saw there latest baby which was only two weeks old then.

They have a HUGE lake in which they swim every day in summer, it'd great watching them swimming in such a big lake like that.

They shut down in winter but still seem to thrive there.

Mark

multiple bulls
11-05-2005

i think its good to hear of a facility that keeps not only a herd of females, but multiple males as well. i was hoping that melbourne was going to build bull facilities for more than one bull but it seems they haven't.

i believe the "competition factor" of keeping more that one adult male would be quite helpful in stimulating the bulls into breeding behaviour.

Elephant bulls
11-05-2005

Thats right Patrick, more males are better in a breeding herd, I have also seen this factor in some of the English zoo's were they have back up males.

Another factor in breeding Elephants in zoo's is if you only have one male breeding in a herd and he dies like the big male African Elephant at the Toronto zoo, your breeding program comes to a sharp hate so more than one male in a heard is the way to go.

Toronto Zoo elephants
12-05-2005

Interesting to see that Toronto Zoo had a breeding plan ( and could resume it when they get another male ) for African elephants . Canada can get quite chilly on summer nights ( minus 6 degrees celcius ) and I would hate to think what Winters are like !
From what I gather ,African elephants are much harder to keep in captivity , so if Toronto has had previous successes with breeding them , they should certainly be encouraged to get a new bull or two , and resume the programme
I happened to be reading their website last night , but they dont have that much in the way of information about the animlas that they have got .
It appears that they are concentrating on African elephants ( there was no mention of Asian elephants at the zoo )

african elephants in australia
12-05-2005

dubbo zoo originally had a crack at breeding african elephants, but with the death of the bull about some years ago, the zoo decided not to attempt to aquire another bull - instead it was too busy focusing on plans for asian elephants.

i imagine the 3 female african elephants at dubbo are now too old to breed.
though apparently there is a 20 year old female african elephant in a circus in NZ.

Dubbo zoo
12-05-2005

Patrick, Western plains zoo imported four African Elephants from longleat safari park just before it opened in 1977, 1 male and 3 females, the male was called David, some years later they imported another male and female from the US. I saw them there just after it opened.

The male from the US I think was called Congo and was one of the baby Elephants in that 1960's movie Harati with John Wayne, who was shipped to the US after making that movie along with the two females, I had heard he became the largest African male in captiviy, one of the females went on to live in the San Deigo zoo and then the San Deigo wild animal park were she had bred.

I am not sure when the first male died in Dubbo but I did see Congo before he died and must say he was huge. its a shame they never bred, maybe a bigger group from the start would of helped like it did at the Toronto zoo who started with 1 male and 8 females!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark

Europe
13-06-2005

Just to clear a point.
here in the UK we have a number of zoos and safari parks that keep elephants. A lot have problems with breeding but a significant number have had repeated successes (Chester, Knowsley Safari Park and Howlett's among others).
What is interesting is that the zoos that have had successful births (and Chester has the first third generation zoo born elephant in Europe) do not limit the time the elephants spend outdoors in the fairly cold, wet and snowy winters. Indeed the elephants are left to decide whether they will go out themselves and the doors are only closed in the evenings.
There is no more pleasurable sight than watching a baby elephant "catching" snow with their trunks.

elephant sanctuary in Malaysia
17-07-2006

http://www.journeymalaysia.com/MR_ecenter1.htm

I have not been to this place , but it looks to have potential . I aint saying that there are no problems ( I am sure there are , of elephant size proportions )
I feel that there should be more emphasis on this sort of place , or the elephant sanctuary in Tennessee USA , rather than Taronga zoo getting 5 new elephants

19-07-2006

Nigel,

The Elephant Sanctuary does nothing for the conservation of the species. It only maintains a repository of elderly elephants off exhibit. Now, what could be the value in that? I would wish more of these animal welfarers would wake up to the world and realise in that manner we are not going to save too many species. But perhaps that is just their goal, I do not know!

If we really want to secure a future for elephants in our world, we must conserve their last natural habitats effectively and set up breeding centers for them in captivity with an aim of eventual reintroduction to the wild (for this should be the final goal to get them off the endangered list). The ex situ breeding projects serve both to nurture the public and educate about the plight of elephants and our god given duty to conserve for posterity. So my advice; go get up and give something back to in situ conservation (in money, kind and/or goods)! For suggestions look at the IUCN Asian elephant specialists site.

the elephant sanctuary
19-07-2006

jelle,

the "value" of the elephant sanctuary is that it provides a home (one that many would argue the best in the world mind you) for abused, often elderly, female elephants.

yet you argue that they do nothing for the conservation of the species, as if they need to do more than that to justify their reason for being!

firstly, the america needs sanctuaries such as this. there are hundreds apon hunderds of elephants in that country - most in their later years, most female and like most elephants in circus' and zoos, pretty miserable lives. without places like this there would be nowhere to retire any of these animals. they would die under the same, often dreadful conditions that they have lived in most of their lives.

so what if, being a non-profit, privately owned facility they don't have enough money to put into elephant conservation? unlike zoos, the elephant sanctuary doesn't pretend that conservation is is core purpose. its core purpose is providing a home for otherwise homeless animals, many who have come from neglected environments in zoos, who in turn probably pretended they did it in the name of conservation.

in addition to this i'll tell you one thing they also do. the elephant sanctuary illustrates to people the sharp contrast between the way most zoos keep their elephants and how an elephant can be kept in captivity.

and that good enough for me!