trouble with breeding elephants

19-07-2006

Here here Patrick! Perfectly stated, in my opinion....

response from Nigel
19-07-2006

I appreciate that anyone can make comments on this forum , and I thank Jelle for doing so , even if we may be on opposite ends of the playing field from time to time .
The idea of having a large area like this , with keepers , and some educational element in the human interaction ( tourist visits ) has the potential to be what is really needed for elephant survival if they are really endangered due to diminishing habitat .
While elderly female elephants may not contribute much to elephant conservation , this pace doesnt need to be solely an elderly female elephant resthome . I bet their enclosures are larger than the elephant enclosures in regional zoos , and they certainly have heaps more room than , say , the new elephant complex at Taronga park zoo , or Aucklands zoo , or any other city zoo . The enclosures may even be larger than some open range zoo .
It cant be too hard to introduce a variety of elephants of various age/sex and encourage breeding of appropriate animals ( obviously , not the elderly females )
Again , as I have never seen this place , I cannot vouch that it is a great place for elephants . There may well be problems . But from what I have read in its website , I think it has potential , and that is my important word .

Once again , I have the highest regard for Jelle , and appreciate his views

19-07-2006

firstly nigel you have awoken an issue i have never thought much about.
is jelle a guy? i always kinda figured he/she was a girl. maybe its the name. geez, now ya got me thinkin! zuki-pah is a girl right? i always imagined she was a japanese girl!

ha ha ha.... never thougt bout that before!!

anyhow, when the proposal was put forth for a elephant sanctuary here in victoria, i had my hope set on it being open to the public. i figured, without the distraction from other animals, it would give the orginasation the opportunity to do some serious elephant conservation lobbying to its visitors. since the elephants in these types of places come from performing in circus' or living in zoos, they are hardly going to be particuarly stressed by being open to the public. not if they are given huge amounts of space to roam.

the idea of such a facility doubling as a breeding center is tempting - however i can fully understand why the elephant sanctuary in the states has a no-breeding policy. they are a non-profit retrement facility created with the core mission of rescuing animals neglected in zoos and circus'. they are largely opposed to the way these institutions care for these creatures. the last thing they would want to do is breed more and take up valuable resources doing as such that could go to needier animals. despite being the largest captive elephant facility in the world, if every elephant in need of "retirement" in the US was sent there, they wouldn't have enough room. nontheless they lobby certain zoos to donate their animals to them and they provide an excellent job at caring for them. they have attracted world-wide attention for the good work they do.

if people or zoos want to breed elephants - well its up to them to create the right sort of environment for that. by all means look at the elephant sanctuary for inspiration, but i respect their status as a place dedicated to the sole purpose of being kind to some very beautiful animals who have been neglected for far too long. i hope they always maintain that stance, since i think they are doing a great job of raising peoples expectations of good elephant care.

19-07-2006

hay guys, yes Zoo_Boy gonna have some imput

the 2 main sanctuaries in the us firstly provide a home for elephants, but the tennesse one, houses only females, and is not open to public, the other in california is a home for many animals, mainly eles, but it houses males and likes to breed them if they can

i carnt wait for a sanctuary in oz, although our open zos with eles- dubbo, are doing great job, i always thought it would be a fantastic place to house the 6 NSW asian circus girls, and they would gbe great company for burma, the only prob dubbo would then have a whopping 11 eles, so government assistance, or even that from circus would make this a great prospect

how many eles are ready for retirment, i no of 6 in nsw, (stated in Daily telegraph some months ago) and another elephant (i think african) in new zealand, which was proposed to come to dubbo, whts the story with other states

19-07-2006

i have no idea how many elephants there are in cuircus' here Zoo_Boy (aka zoounderscoreboy!). i know the last living ashton's elephant, gigi, ended up at startdust circus with arna, putting an end (albeit a somewhat temporary one) to the much publicised lawsuit that surrounded her. personally, i dont think there are (fortunately) enough elephants in circus' here in australia to be worthwhile investing millions in creating a sanctuary for. in a decade or so one would expect most of those animals to have died and thus the sanctuary would cease to be able to operate as such anyway.
that is unless they had ARAZPA accreditation and some sort of arrangement to continue to maintain elephants within the asian elephant breeding program, but that seems unlikely.

that said - circus' elephant facilities usually consist of little more than a few chains, some eletric wires and a often decrepid trailer, with or without a tarpaulin for shade! so one would expect that it wouldn't take much to improve on that. but for the sorts of facilities the animals deserve.....

instead, i am all for animals being "retired" within our open-range zoological parks, dubbo being the obvious choice. that way, the facilities are likely to be likely to be utilised even after their deaths.

19-07-2006

i totally agree, and i beleive all of wht ya said, including pacement in zoos, but for dubbo example, with space and already internationally reconised, unlike werribee, but monarto does have an elephant barn, for dubbo to take on say another 6 elephants it would be very finacially strapping, i mean wow 11 elephants, but with the correct finacing i belive that would be the best opp.

so i think it would be great, although if the chance arose to crate a sanctuary, with enough space, we could then utilise, as you say, the area if the older generation became deceased, to house new animals in a breeding area.

but again with Housing CIRCUS eles, what wuld be done with other circus animals, there could be a national outcry to house all the lions and macquaces. i mean it would be great to have one facility, and to think, the monkeys and tigers and lions dont need much really!

19-07-2006

despite all the times i have been bitten, chased, attacked, robbed and even outwitted (i know embarassing) by macaques in my life, i'm actually kinda fond of them in a weird kinda way.

but yes, i would love to know how many of them (and what else) is housed in all the universities and private zoos and circus' in australia.

19-07-2006

DANG, i'll be damned. zookeeper! zoo-kee-paah.

i'll still shorten in to zuki (and imagine you as a japanese girl) if thats okay

20-07-2006

Guys+girls,

Well, Jelle is actually .... a guy that is. Anyhow, patrick and Nigel I seem to have struck a chord here. I agree with you all that the elderly elephant issue is one that has shamelessly been neglected in zoo circles and circusses. But, what I meant is that most of the time the sanctuary facilities are off-exhibit (and do not give people the opportunity to visit ... that would be something) and thus have not much educational value for people - to give them pointers to the central issue: better conservation outlook for elephants in the wild and creation of non consumptive breeding populations in zoos (without need for imports from the wild).

In Europe zoos - though on the face of it no better than anywhere else - thankfully have established a policy that gives individual zoos an option; either intitiate breeding or become a safe house for elderly ageing elephants. Thus zoos have taken on that responsibility for themselves. On top of that, EEP zoos regularly also take in surplus - I HATE THAT WORD - elephants off circusses.

I only wish that zoos (AND zoo associations) on other continents would follow suit and take on the responsibilities they created by housing elephants in the first place. A duty to care and nurture untill they pass away.

But coming back to the central theme: create self-sustaining breeding populations of elephants in zoos in stead of being just consumptive + promoting in situ conservation of elephants in their natural habitats.
What I would like to see from some of the sanctuaries is that they would become breeding centers themselves (the Polk City facility in Florida, US is the one breeding elephants mega I think). Given the heaps of space they often have, they can easily fill in 10-25 places for a breeding group with several males. On the other hand, zoos have the natural prerogative to have the attention of the public .. bingo .. and should therefore put it to better use: to educate visitors about their animal and plant life and instill a wildlife conservation responsibility in the zoo going public. And .. repeating myself .. to start breeding elephants in stead of just maintaining for the status quo (the zoo pop will go extinct in 50 years without new recruitment).

I hope that with the import of new stock to Australia that awareness will finally fruition in Dubbo, Melbourne, Perth and Auckland. Given the wide open spaces that some of the open country zoos have and some forward thinking by the ARAZPA zoos at your end I can only see that elephant populations in zoos will start to grow naturally and become self sustaining. However, still that leaves one zoo to take on the responsibility of housing those elephants that no longer can participate in the breeding programme and need safe selfless quality housing.

Jelle

elephant zoos/sanctuaries
20-07-2006

This is one area which I think Australia could excell in -- if the powers that be could set their mind to it .
I have flown over alot more of Australia than I have been to , but seeing this vast land from the air , I think large chunks of it would make great elephant sanctuaries -- whether for breeding or not .
Australias benefits also include a warm climate ( not too different to Asia or Africa ) flat to gentle rolling terrain ( unlike half of NZ that would be totally unsuitable ) and heaps of land -- lots and lots of it !!
I am well aware that many places are very intensively used and are not suitable for elephants for other reasons ( Mornington Peninsular and Great sandy desert would not be suitable places ) , but surely if you drive from Adelaide to Mildura to Dubbo to Toowoomba to Biloela , I am sure you would find many sites that could be suitable ......