Are the WDCS against cetaceans in captivity?

07-06-2010

can you give concrete examples and sources of this?

08-06-2010

I think she may be reffering to Kshamenk of Mundo Marina, Argentina. They've admitted that all of their Orca's and a couple of BND's were forced to strand. Taiji whale Museum, Port of Nagoya and Izu-Mito never denied their animals where from Taiji Dolphin Drives nor claimed them to be rescues.


Guess what, Jen-Jen, one of the most stimulating things you can get any animal to do is learn. Training is simply that. Many rescued dolphins do start copying their 'performing' friends. They will do so without being asked and join in the show. FKW's have done this, Common Dolphins, Pilot Whales and even Sea Lions. They learn naturally.

09-06-2010

wow, your going discredit me after i refered to one article. yes i do read scientific papers as well, i said i did. and i have spoted flaws in several pro cap websites too and have corrected some anti cap peoples arguments when they have been wrong. but i'd say the article i posted was from a more reputable sorce than the one you posted.

09-06-2010

oh, pleses dont call me a PETA-like, i actually cant stand them. and i have no idea who peepchick is.

i never said they live to 90 in the wild, i know its very rare. i meant that consider all the advances in medicine, husbandry ect, the life expectancy in the wild is still considerably higher than captivity.

out of the 153 orca that have died in captivity, NONE have made it to their wild average life expectancy. in the wild a orca can live for around 30 for a male 60 years for a female - in captivity they are lucky to reach 15. Of the 194 killer whales in captivity since 1964, almost 2/3 didn’t make it passed 10 years in captivity. Less than 30 orcas survived more than 20 years in captivity. Average time in captivity has improved steadily over the decades, but is still very low.


"Don't be a sheep and do your own research."
how about you do your own research and stop listening to just what seaworld say.
you want examples, ok.---- (refering to taima who died giving birth yesterday)

"Dr. Chris Dold, vice president of veterinary services for Orlando-based SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment ... said SeaWorld has not had a mother killer whale die while giving birth in more than 25 years."
--> Samoa died during labor of a near full-term fetus in March 1992. Already forgotten? Two more females died during their pregnancies in 1991 and 2001.

"The company, which operates SeaWorld marine parks in Orlando, San Diego and San Antonio, says it has recorded 26 successful killer-whale births since its first in 1985. Losses of the fetus are more common, although Dold said the rate of killer-whale stillbirths is significantly lower in SeaWorld's parks than it is in the wild."
--> To my knowledge there is no scientific data of stillbirths in the wild to compare with. But almost a third out of the 37 known SeaWorld pregnancies didn't result in a live calf (7 stillbirths, 5 miscarriages). Two calves died after a couple days, two more didn't reach their third birthday. Hardly a record to brag about...

On CNN, Dold said "the birthing success rate is about 50 percent in the wild and 85 percent in a zoological situation."
--> The birthing success rate for killer whales in captivity is actually 74 percent, at SeaWorld it is just 68 percent. The "50 percent in the wild" that Dold cites is the estimated survival rate of a wild killer calf in its first year. If I'd count that, the captivity numbers get even worse.



And dont even get me started on the cooling pumps that can be heard underwater 24/7, the increased aggression between orcas and towards trainers, the stress related diseases. Different orca species actively avoid each other and never interbreed. Yet theme parks put animals from different races and regions in the same tanks and expect them to mate and eat the same food and get along (they often dont). the fact that in the wild orcas stay together for life yet in captivity they are regularly split up.

i love zoos, yes but i am not blind to the fact that some animals just dont belong in captivity.


(and too the other poster, yes i was refering to kshamenk and others, and Mundo Marino (which is a terrible place. the tank is old, rusty and broken) several people were arrested for the crime which they admitted but have yet to stand trial)

10-06-2010

Right:

A) I never said YOU in particular were PETA-likes, there are many.

B) We haven't had Orca's in captivity long enough to see how old they'll get (Corky and Lolita are 40+. Ulises of SWC is about 33 probably older). But the most accurates are going to be orca's like Kalina who were born there.

C) Taima's death was an accident. It happens in the wild too. Of course deaths like that have happened before, it happens for humans in 1st world and 3rd world country's. It's very common accross species, not just for Orca. Plus, we only see it in life in captivity cos hey, we can see them there we can't always be with them in the wild. If that were possible... anti-caps would have a shock.

D) Err how is having a 75% chance in captivity worse than a 50% chance in the wild? And that's not a guess, it's known for the most studied pods that the first year is a 50/50 go.

E) "Yet theme parks put animals from different races and regions in the same tanks and expect them to mate and eat the same food and get along (they often dont). the fact that in the wild orcas stay together for life yet in captivity they are regularly split up."

Where do I start? Right, in the 60's all the way up to the 80's, Orca societies weren't known about. We especially didn't know about dialects and family connections. These places do NOT expect everyone to get along OR mate. But they often DO. The fact that captive orca's have to be split up is horrible, yes, but it has to be done. People moan enough about calves from unrelated parents, what about another Nalani (And yes, mother-son breeding does and has happened in the wild).

A species that REALLY doesn't belong in captivity are Octopus. They do NOT breed, they do NOT live long and they become ill within 2 weeks of being in human care. Orca's do not suffer as badly as you make out. They do not get ill all the time and they do not always suffer miscarriages. The USA and Europe do not get or capture wild animals, it's captive bred only. South America, Canada and Asia, Russia do not have the same laws. Go after them for captures not SW. Both SW and Six Flags tried to get Kshamenk over the years not for their gain (Seriously, in an aggressive transient like Kshamenk, not much personal gain) but to get him out of there. The cooling pumps are not heard by the animals, how do I know? Because they are kept in buildings that have thick walls so the animals barely hear it.

Wild Orca's do not actively avoid each other, if they come accross each other they generally breed. The saying "stay together for life" is rubbish considering pods break up, rejoin and break up again. Generally males staying with mothers and the females going off with sons and calves. They do inbreed heavily. Sex for cetaceans and apes isn't only for reproduction. They do it a LOT for pleasure.

To me, if you don't mind Elephants in captivity, you can't mind Orca's in captivity. You can't recreate a savannah anywhere but Africa, you can't recreate the San Juan islands on land. BUT you do the best you can for the animals.

It was PETA-likes that killed Keiko. Seriously. Even the FreeWilly Foundation admitted it was a failiure.

12-06-2010

Sorry but this made me laugh. Where do you get your information from? Octopus do not live long in captivity because they do not live long full-stop. All species grow extremely rapidly and then die after breeding. Small species can have a lifespan of as little as six months. Most species live between one and three years. Even the Pacific giant octopus only lives five to eight years maximum. Because most Aquariums get their octopuses as adults they are already at least quarter of the way through their life cycle.

Octopuses can be, and are being, kept very successfully all over the world by both private hobbyists and public aquariums. Your statement that they become ill within two weeks of being taken into captivity is not supported by my own experiences with a large number of octopuses, almost all of which adapted quickly to captivity and lived out a normal lifespan (those which did not were released again).

Your other statement that "they do NOT breed" in captivity is quite blatantly untrue. The only thing preventing captive reproduction is the octopuses' own cannibalistic tendencies -- you cannot keep two octopuses in the same tank without one being killed and eaten, so introductions between male and female need to be undertaken carefully. There are a number of Aquariums that breed octopuses: here are some photos that I just took today of a New Zealand octopus and her eggs (laid yesterday)
NZ octopus (Pinnoctopus cordiformis) with eggs
eggs of NZ octopus (Pinnoctopus cordiformis)
eggs of NZ octopus (Pinnoctopus cordiformis)

28-06-2010

I am sorry but with respect we do not know what ‘Keiko’ died of because no bonfida post-morten of the animal was undertaken.

Sorry again, here are the actual facts regarding ‘Keiko’ and his rehab.

Keiko the killer whale

Please also read the link to the copy of the paper recently published in 2009 in the peer-review journal Marine Mammal Science. He never was observed hunting and feeding himself successfully and he went missing for sometime when he was ‘released’ by his new owners the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) as (IMHO) they realised he would never integrate back to a wild whale pod. He then made his way to Norway were he was found begging for food, hardly the actions of an animal integrated back into the wild!

Keiko was in his pen in Iceland from 1998 he died in Norway in 2003 so I don't understand your comment regarding "7 months"

I also disagree with your statement that ‘Keiko’ would have die even if he was in captivity of the illness that killed him because as I understand it there was no experience marine mammal vet present at the Norway site and there was also no way to do a full examination on this animal.

Many? No they haven’t. Certainly not properly run scientifically published studies.

Only two such projects am I aware of:

WELLS,R.S., K. BASSOS-HULL AND K. S. NORRIS. 1998. Experimental return to the wild of two bottlenose dolphins. Marine Mammal Science 14:51–71.

GALES,N., AND K. WAPLES. 1993. The relationship and release of bottlenose dolphins from Atlantis Marine Park, Western Australia. Aquatic Mammals 19:49–59.

The first one above involved young male animals deliberate caught and held for two years and then return to their place of capture. The other was of long-term captives and the off-spring from an aquarium in Perth Australia. The fate of all these animals is unknown but what is known is that a number did not re-adapt and had to be returned to captive care.

More information can be found here:

Releasing Captives Back to the Wild

Yes animal rights activists do cite various projects on their web sites but these have never been followed through and were inconclusive.

The UK Into The Blue Project with three ex captive dolphins is hailed a success by activists but their is no evidence they the animals survived.

INTO THE BLUE - What ever became of "Missie", "Silver" and "Rocky"

An illegal release by activist Ric O’Barry ended with the animals having to be recaptured in a poor physical state with animal dying some years later due to a long-term health problem developed due to this trauma. O’Barry was prosecuted and fined.

THE SUGARLOAF DOLPHIN RELEASES

I am sorry but the evidence for this is not as compelling as many think, see this paper here.

Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans<BR> (Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises)

And another review here:

Bibliographic Guide to Dolphin Intelligence

Anyway, regardless of a human assumption of ‘intelligence’ why should ‘lesser’ animals be treated differently.

28-06-2010

What skin problems? Bottlenose dolphins spend most of the lives near or on the water surface.

I spent most of my career working with marine mammals including dolphins and I am not aware of the systematic prescription of either tranquillisers or antidepressants – and I do know people at Sea World.

The only time I have ever been aware of the prescription of these drugs for zoo animals is for genuine veterinary reasons. As I said, I do not know of these drugs being given to these animals on a day to day basis and you certainly would not be giving these to animals in a training situation.

The whole issue of survivorship of cetaceans in captive care is still even now being used by animal-rights activist and to suggest that captive survivorship has not improved since the 1970s is nonsense.

See link below:

http://www.rosmarus.com/Download/Survival.pdf


I think you need to go away and do some real research on this matter as zoological collections are not just about breeding endangered species but also research and education. I would suggest you read the work of the late Dr Kenneth Norris. There are many scientist and researchers who belief that research on captive cetaceans is as valid as that of animals in the wild.

28-06-2010

Here's WDCS's latest bit of fun.

UK based Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS) is lobbying the Indian Government to ban dolphinaria

They actually spend money on a "Captivity Programme Manager". Money well spent.

Although much as they like to think so, they did close down any dolphinaria in the UK it's a bit more complicated. See my comments here:

UK Dolphinaria

28-06-2010

Can we have a reference for these figures and not one from an animal-rights web site but a scientific peer review journal.

I would also add that using percentages is very misleading if you do not include the actual data numbers. Since Seaworld has the largest number of captive bred orca in the world can you explain why they have a lower than average figure? You may say that they have a higher infant mortally rate but then they have more births. You could, for example, have an aquarium which has a one and only birth in a five year period and the animal is still alive and they will rightly say they have 100% breeding success rate - but it's only one animal but they could say that on paper they have a better success rate than Seaworld!

You may also be interested in this link.

Baby orca lost battle against potent storm

Paul Cottrell, marine mammal co-ordinator with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, said yesterday....The death rate among orca calves in resident populations is steep, as high as 40 per cent over the first year.