Golden monkeys » Los Angeles Zoo

04-03-2007

Yes they are still going, a multimillion dollar enclosure is being build at Shanghai and they are promised. As far as i remember Rotterdam Zoo received multiple animals from Shanghai allready without a straight exchange back (takin's, white-lipped and tufted deer amongst others i believe).

Cologne still holds 1.3 Douc's but they are highly inbred and are expected to die out. Still i don't believe you can compare zoological situations with those 20 years ago. San Diego had problems with letting them thrive and they are in a relatively hot climate. I don't know what causes the problems with them in the western world, but it wouldn't suprise me if it's just inbreeding, which has nothing to do with the ability to keep them but only with the ability to obtain enough unrelated animals...

A zoo like Duisburg can import fresh eucalyptes for their koala's, so why would it be impossible to keep Douc's and import fresh leaves for them. If a zoo commits to these species, even in a moderate climate they should be able to be kept decently in my opinion anyways...

But considering the impossibility's of getting unrelated animals it might be better for zoo's to switch to golden monkey's who are prolific in captivity in China. But then the whole renting issue comes up and they would need to be kept under the chinese breeding program, because western zoo's can't start up their own without "owning" the animals. This doesn't mean that they can't contribute to their breeding program though, so even tho it isn't ideal it's not that bad...

In my opinion the only reasonable long term solution is to pick a relatively endangered species, of which enough unrelated founders can be obtained now or in the near future to set up a breeding program big enough to keep a good population in western zoo's. The annoying thing about that is that every zoo is going to keep the same species...

Small note on takin's: Europe currently holds three subspecies of takin's, Szechuan, Mishmi and golden takin's. We tried to trace their origins with some dutch zoo-followers and as far as we know all the Mishmi's in the western world (thus including USA) are from 2.1 founders in Berlin Tierpark so hugely inbred. The Szechuan are Rotterdam's original pair received from Shanghai and their offspring distributed over Europe, the male founder of Rotterdam died recently so any new offspring will be brother/sister. And the golden takin's are Liberec (czech republic) original pair and their offspring 2.1 who are at Chomutov (also CZ). Any new blood would help any of these subspecies...

05-03-2007

Jwer. In UK Marwell Zoo also have a pair of Takins- Mishmi I think- and they bred a calf this last year.. I don't know where they originate from but probably zoobred.

What is the situation with the White-lipped Deer at Rotterdam now? When I saw them some years ago there was 1.1 plus one calf. Have they multiplied or
otherwise?

Its always a problem with the 'difficult to obtain' (as against actually numerically 'rare') species (e.g. Golden Monkey?) where only a pair or trio is made available- as I said, the loss of even one animal can then prevent breeding opportunities if a replacement isn't quickly available. As you said, a species where it isn't difficult to get additional animals for replacement, or to prevent too much inbreeding, is perhaps a wiser and more realistic choice. Maybe 3.3 as a minumum of founder animals is a reasonable ratio for starting groups of primates in new locations?

05-03-2007

Rotterdam shipped their remaining white-lipped deer to Safaripark Beekse Bergen in (i think) 2005 somewhere, they don't have any anymore. Mishmi's are kept at multiple locations, Berlin Tierpark has a dozen or more of them, Wuppertal, Prague and a few others hold them as well but as i said, they are all from 2.1 animals imported to Berlin a couple of decades back. All highly inbred.

05-03-2007

I believe the problem with keeping doucs is not so much diet but stress. I'm sure fresh leaves could be imported for feeding, but doucs are also extremely sensitive to humidity, temperature and general environmental stress. The ones at San Diego developed gastrointestinal problems, not sure what the cause is, but it well could be environmental stress.

05-03-2007

I think both views are partially correct- if diet isn't exactly right, then condition will deteriorate, and faster still if the animals suffer from stress anyway. Douc Langurs are very nervous creatures so probably experience a lot of stress under captive conditions- zoos which bred from them also experienced a number of miscarriages and stillbirths in the females, another indicator that they may be suffering high stress levels. They do seem unsuited for captivity, except perhaps in semi-liberty in their native countries, as at the Rare Langur breeding sanctuary in Vietnam.

05-03-2007

sounds like what zooish was describing, chimps, or gorrillas (sorry) developed many probs when in humidity of singapore, after releoctaiong from europe i belive.

not hold me to were from

on keeping doucs...
05-03-2007

zooboy,
that problem zooish described related to gorillas and was related not to the humidity of singapore but instead a bacteria the (in the soil i believe) animals had no immunity to..

i have seen two places that breed doucs. one was the EPRC, who have probably had more success than any other institution in the world, ever.
they bred a lot of red-shanks, had a few breeding pairs of grey shanked and had even accidently crossed a grey shank with a black shanked douc. they are quite radically different types when seen up close. definately seperate species. the EPRC is quiet and the animals recieve few, visitors and planty of fresh foliage ina natural climate.

the other place was dusit zoo in thailand. noisy and unattractive, the animals lived in a very large tall cage with virtually no attempt at naturalistic landscaping. they did however probably have a good diet of fresh leaves and a of course a warm climate. and the baby langur was quite intersested in people.

i also know singapore breed doucs well. i assume again that they get plenty of fresh native asian foliage and a good climate..

i'm sure stress is a big factor too, but i think its a little niave to think that fresh tropical foliage and possibly a warm climate isnt a largely contributing factor.

unfortunately the cologne doucs represent another dead-end breeding program since they have not passed them on. they should have been offered to sinagpore, who would no doubt be greatful for another bloodline, that can easily be invogorated with their own stock. certainly, i would be intersted to see how the european animals setting into a more natural-type surround...

05-03-2007

Keeping a nervous and stress-prone species in a climate different from its natural one, and with a different diet is obviously a recipe for failure- as several overseas zoos have proved.

Many years back I too saw Douc Langurs in the Dusit zoo in Thailand,- despite basic housing they looked remarkably well- due to natural climate and a near natural diet? But I wonder what their longevity records are under these conditions?

Where is ERPC- is that the Langur breeding centre in Vietnam? It was featured in a DVD on Auckland zoo as they have a linkup. They even have several Delacour's langurs there- a very impressive animal.

Its interesting that many zoos in the UK/Europe now exhibit Javan Langurs- in contrast to Douc's these do seem easy to maintain and they multiply accordingly.

06-03-2007

In Singapore we keep our doucs on a fairly large vegetated island. The moat surrounding the island is 10 metres wide, giving the doucs quite a bit of privacy.

New bloodlines have been acquired from Thai and Vietnam zoos over the years. They are a top priority species, so every effort will be taken to ensure they don't inbreed. San Diego has been working with us on monitoring the stress levels of our doucs, as well as charting development of the babies.

grantsmb > EPRC Endangered Primate Rescue Centre is in Vietnam. They specialize in doucs, delacours, francois and cat ba langurs and gibbons. Very respected facility.

06-03-2007

Zooish- thanks for ERPC info- that's the place I saw featured on the Auckland Zoo DVD. It looks great and all their Langurs look really fit and healthy.

I guess your Doucs at Singapore must have a pretty good existence too from the description of the enclosure. If they are increasing their numbers that would prove it....

06-03-2007

the animals at the EPRC are all bred their or rehabilitated confiscated animals. its a fantastic facility. they are with the xception of newcomers, very healthy, well cared-for animals. its worth every bit of the (then) difficult motorbike ride out to the national park to see them. the gorgeous cat ba langurs at the centre were mother/son when i was there. the mature male had been bitten by a snake and died. don't kow if they have aquired more since.

they also have breeding groups of grey langurs and the two loris species. next door is a breeding centre for endangered turtles and ownston's palm civets.

black-shanked douc langurs are bizarre. they look somewhat like a grey-shanked douc with a blue face!

06-03-2007

I think all members of the snub-nosed monkey family including doucs are spectacular.

Golden monkeys are the most well-known members of their family but the Tonkin, Guizhou and Yunnan varieties are equally if not even more stunning.
Sadly they're all so rare.

07-03-2007

Zooish do you have any pics of any of these rare monkeys that you could post up in the gallery, many of us have never seen some of these animals, ta

08-03-2007

^Guizhou Snub Nosed Monkey


^Yunnan Snub Nosed Monkey


^Tonkin Snub Nosed Monkey

These are the better ones i've found on the net. Being so rare, these animals are hardly photographed so its hard to find good pics of them.

08-03-2007

thanks zooish, but i think he meant the doucs at singapore