Sumatran rhino move. » Los Angeles Zoo

17-04-2007

I won't rob Patrick of his joys of shouting "climate, climate"

Dvur ain't that good a choice, afaik the only one that was really into international cooperation was the white rhino studbookkeeper who allready left them, and they don't have the resources for this kind of operation. I would say Singapore, San Diego, ZSL, Berlin Zoo/Tierpark or Howlett's/Port Lympne...

17-04-2007

valid points zoopro and jwer. but not points that i overlooked.

outside of java the only known rhino are in cat tien NP, vietnam. in numbers generally thought to be under 10, could be as little as 2 or 3.
that means extinction is inevitable without additional founders being sought from java or in other areas of southeast asia (and the idea of additional isolated populations existing in northern cambodia or laos are a possibility jwer like you suggested). i think its pretty safe to assume a protect them and they will flourish, policy is still pretty "iffy" when you are talking about such a small possibly aged population. i did suggest (in a bit of a backflip from what i usually argue) that capturing these remaining animals would be their best chance. but don't make the assumtion that i meant in a dodgy, not thought out way! now of course i'm not suggesting that a bunch of foreigners storm in, catch a few animals, declare that they have the lot and then take them to some foreign zoo, so zoopro's correlation with the hairy nosed wombat isn't really fair.

in fact i went out of my way to suggest THEY ARE NOT placed in a zoo and instead remain in a sanctuary within cat tien, IN vietnam. i think thats very important.

the logistics of moving the actual animals, and the even more difficult issue of political agreement to move animals between indonesia and vietnam - thats all stuff thats all stuff thats no doubt vey difficult but surely not impossible. i'm not pretending to be an expert but the idea is theortically possible.

the population size, age and sex ratio certainly needs to be properly established before any of this could even be considered. and you would think any planned capture would only be exectuted if felt necessary. but say the population does have no immediate reproductive hopes (and its highly likely to be the case) human intervention will be the only hope, guarenteed or not, to either save this unique population or at least preserve and consolodate some of its valuable genetics into the only other known group in java.

never said it was easy, lots of "if's" involved, lots of different factors and lots of questions that need to be answered before its even considered.

but lets be honest - evidence is suggesting they have little hope on their own..

do you think we could at least agree that the situation in cat tien (cat loc) is pretty bad and that it would be nice if further funding, reasearch into the statistics of the population was explored? i would be keen to see a more confirmed population assesment for starters..

17-04-2007

That would be good. But what about the Northern White rhino, Does that deserve some help?

17-04-2007

there is so little left, i mean 4 o5 in teh wild, and an absolutally useless zoo in europe wont do anything, when they recived a bckup popul.

if my facs aint striaght plz tell me lol

18-04-2007

That useless zoo has bred them but is worried about inbreeding and Hybridizing.

18-04-2007

Re Javan rhinos in Vietnam. Irrespective of all our hypothesising about what should be done to 'help' them,does anyone know if there are any actual 'official' plans to try and improve their situation- or are they simply being left alone, either to increase or die out. Since their discovery, there has been no further info. about these animals really- except the usual reports that numbers may be even fewer than previously thought'etc and a few photo portraits

18-04-2007

Jwer, Why ZSL? They Have only got Whites and Indians? San Diego WAP Has Basically all of them Except Sumatrans.

18-04-2007

Mostly because i would reckon they are among the richest Zoological society's in the world with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. For some reason or another i would trust them in doing such a thing.

And they are not American, which might help with getting some coöperation around the world

18-04-2007

Well ZSL have just spent £5 million ($10million) on a New Gorrilla house.

18-04-2007

jwer, zsl is only recently becoming cash flow positve. a numbe rof financial breakthroughs and windfalls have helped, but they need to get their 'house in order' first. nonetheless, their conservation programs span the globe and are amazing!!!
details if you want them later, but just remember, london wa son the very brink of closure less than 15 years ago

18-04-2007

Half of this sum was left by a single benefactor! (wish I knew them...)

18-04-2007

[quote=jwer;11456]Mostly because i would reckon they are among the richest Zoological society's in the world with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. For some reason or another i would trust them in doing such a thing.

I know what you mean, but ZSL/Whipsnade do not have a very enviable record with their Rhinos other than the Whites, which have been very successful. Although they have kept both Black and Indian Rhinos for very many years, and Whipsnade has a reputation as a 'Rhino' centre the breeding records for both species are actually very poor.

Black Rhino - A pair at each of ZSL & Whipsnade kept between the mid 1960's and the 1980's produced about 10 calves(5 at each location) of which only 2 survived to breed elsewhere. Since those founder animals died, replacement pairs at both locations failed to produce a single calf in the last fifteen years. Both places no longer keep Black Rhino.

Indian rhino- Whipsnade only- first(wildcaught)pair, 1950's onwards, produced two calves, no further breeding from either founders or offspring. 2nd(zooborn) pair, acquired 1970/80's produced 8 calves- 4 did not survive, one died as adult.

As you know, Whipsnade had an Indian calf born recently- the first in 17 years! Not something I would boast about...

Its not exactly in illustrious breeding record for either species. During the same time period Port Lympne's Black Rhino herd has grown to over twenty, with many births, few losses of calves and even some translocations back to the Wild. Rather a big difference in performances here. I think they could possibly have succeeded with the Sumatran rhinos too, if a younger female had been available at the time.

19-04-2007

i remember reading about her donation in the metro

20-04-2007

re. the post about so called "elephant sanctuary" in Tennesse, it is a non breeding facility, which will not house males!, and practices very unsound management practices.
Having this as a model for anybody thinking of helping critically endangered species like asian elephants or sumatran rhinos would be NUTS, and tantamount to saying ," lets give up on the captive saftey net and put all our eggs in one basket in situ and HOPE political, natural and other disasters dont strike- and everything in the wild will hopefully be okay!"
Which unfortunatley does NOT happen!, if zoos had taken Javan or Caspain tigers 30 odd years ago we would still have options now.
Anyone looking for good ex citu large animal breeding models should look at the RIDDLE'S Arkansas Elephant Sanctuary or Ringlings Elephant Conservation Centre!

Toronto
20-04-2007

Hi Ontario Zoo ,

Thanks for your input .
Are you able to tell us about anything that Metro Toronto Zoo , with their breeding of rhinos , elephants etc ?
I hear that the zoo is one of the better ones in North America , but we seem only to get news about Bronx or San Diego zoos .