Dokkoon is pregnant! » Melbourne Zoo

04-06-2008

I think in this case, Thi did more than 'help' Sithami - as she'd lost her own calf she partially adopted 'Sundara' and did about 60% of the work. But the concept is much the same.

I noted last year how much 'Sithami' has grown since- her growth evidently not being impaired by producing a calf at such a young age.

04-06-2008

I agree with you on that, although Bong Su never grew up in the right enviornment, he should have been stimulated to some extent, the situation is much like humans, take example kapah who was a sister figure and then these new girls come, naturally if they are in heat a bull will mount them. Very complicated can't find the right words for it.

But there is one theory i have, could very well be wrong but:

When Bong Su comes into contact with the females, Kapah could be very protective of them, but then again she should know Bong Su very well. In the wild though Matriachs and bulls don't get a along very well,

05-06-2008

Bong Su would need to be paired up in a bachelor herd and get hot with a more experienced bull. We have seen the same thing in Europe with some bulls who without that early vital experience of mature bulls will not "happen" and seem out of place with interested cows.

It is a serious cause for concern (particularly so, since no mature bulls are available in Oz)!!! Another reason still that a 3rd or 4th bull are needed to complement the breeding programme.

Any indication when Australia Zoo is getting in on breeding Asian elephants?

05-06-2008

Perth Zoo has been trying to breed their elephants for quite a while. They at one point i think performed A.I. Putra Mas is the second oldest bull, 19 years old. Permai the cow, was actually observed being mated by Putra, but there has been no pregnancy.

Though Putra didn't grow up in a herd society ( he came here pretty young) he knows how to mate,

Just a point I'd like to bring up,

06-06-2008

Chester's original & firstborn Asian elephant was 'Jubilee' born in 1977. His father died before he was born and he grew up in a small group of females only, no other calves either. At maturity 'Jubilee' was never a breeder and he had a rather 'female' appearance, lacking the normal and distinctive bull elephant's shape and build. Was this a form of 'emasculation' caused by never seeing/smelling/contacting another male elephant?

This is why I fear male calves produced by AI where there is no bull at the zoo concerned could run a similar risk.

Bong Su is a typical impressive bull and in his case I think it is mainly lack of stimulation that has caused this failure to breed the new females. But I still wouldn't rule out a successful mating in the future for him.

06-06-2008

I think Jubilee`s lack of sexual interest and female-like body were caused by the health problems he had in his youth and not by a lack of male company. There are a lot of bulls who grew up with females only in European Zoos and most of them are good breeders and look like "real" bulls. Some examples from Germany: Tembo/Animal Park Berlin, Tusker/Wuppertal (both african eles, though), Gajendra/Munich, Bindu/Cologne (may have contact with another young bull in his youth but never with an adult), Mekong/Leipzig (huge beautiful bull and not a sucessful breeder but he knows how to mate!). Actually i think most of today`s breeding bulls in Europe grew up with females-only and without a male role model and they do breed well. So I don`t think bulls necessarily need adult bulls as role models to become sucessful breeders, although I agree that young bulls benefit greatly from social contact with adult bulls.

My guess for Bong Su is that he will breed naturally in the future if he gets some more time to practise. Just that this won`t happen if they do AI on all females...

06-06-2008

I guess the bring up of elephants is kinda like Human behaviour as well. In some ways,

07-06-2008

i think that in the future Bong Su will probably mate naturally with a female and produce a calf that way, but in the mean time the AI is, as long as Dokkoon goes full term, minimising the risk of his line not being carried on.
now that the breeding programs are reaching their second phase and actually resulting in pregnancies I would hope Taronga and Melbourne consider long-term the option of expanding the existing facilities. particularly Melbourne which still stands to lose Werribee as a potential staging facility for bulls etc...

07-06-2008

I'm sorry if i don't understand but what is it about Werribee and bulls?

07-06-2008

check out the Werribee to Disney land thread

08-06-2008

I certainly agree with you here. And if all the new cows were made pregnant
by AI he wouldn't get the necessary practise so I hope one or two are 'left free' for him.

08-06-2008

I agree on that as well, but I don't think that A.I is that bad if you follow, as long as it has a successful rate I think it is great for the species. Yet Bong Su should learn how to mate naturally. He is the world's most fertile bull, so it won't take as many turns to get one of the cows pregnant. Compared to other bulls,

08-06-2008

They could let Bong Su try to mate the females naturally if he can and still do an AI just in case he can not do the job so it covers both ways

09-06-2008

because of the age structure of the herd at Melbourne its hardly a race against time to get the other two females pregnant ASAP. In Sydney on the other hand Pak Boon is older than Thong Dee and will need to be mated relatively soon.
Securing Bong Su's genes is important to the program's future, but so to is incoprating the genes of other founder stock such as the bull at Perth (if mixing sub-species is something u believe in?) so for the time being using whatever tools the zoos have to acheive this is important.
For this reason I think in the future he should be given the opportunity to mate naturally but I also believe Perths bull is a priority.

09-06-2008

Nothing wrong with AI at all. It just depends on the situation its used in. Where there is no bull or an infertile one, its a very valuable tool. But in this case, where there is a bull you may prefer to breed from naturally, successful AI on all the females might prevent this happening. But as Glyn says, probably the younger Melbourne females won't be AI'd yet anyway, so maybe Bong Su will have time to improve his technique..

Regarding the claim for 'world's most fertile bull' I imagine not very many have actually been tested so its rather meaningless.