Dreamworlds Tiger cubs » Dreamworld

02-04-2007

as i said in my thread, taronga doesnt hand rear its cubs, but does pull them for short times so that as they grow the cubs are comfortable and relaxed around their keepers.
however, the lions were hand-raised, they came from mogo...i think in most cases animals should be parent reared, particularly in zoos but dreamworld, is by nature a commercial operation who keeps tigers both for conservation reasons and for commercial reasons. the two ar einterchangeable in this case, and if dreamworld is to meet its obligations of breeding these animals then it seems they have to hand-raise them. unless they are hand-raised, no tiger island. no tiger island, fewer tigers in the regional breeding program.
they do donate money to in-situ money, and they have white tigers too. white tigers and hand-raising cubs are both grey areas that zoos should stray from, but a commercial operation like dreamworld can get into it i guess. its a case of ethics really. and as th manager of tiger island said this morning, the mother wouldnt be too distressed by the cubs removal, as these animals naturally lose many cubs in the wild.

02-04-2007

I really cannot see any good reason for removing the cubs for hand rearing.
Dreamworld already has several (4?) tigers already handraised and in their show it really doesn't need more. Especially as the sumatrans won't be able to be mixed with the existing tigers because of their size difference.

02-04-2007

sorry guys, had a responce from dream wolrd which i had posted, they than read the post and said very disapointed its was posted publically, there was nothing wrong with the emails, just not happy to have them posted

they stand buy taking the cubs of mothers for enrichment purposes

02-04-2007

someone said that dreamworld have plenty of tiogers for interactive display and don't need anymore - it was my impression that the bengal hybrids kept at dreamworld (white or otherwise) are in the process of being phased out and replaced with sumatrans so as to be involved in the australiasian program. i imagine that many of the bengal hybrids on "tiger island" are getting fairly old now.

as for keeping bengals and sumatrans seperate - does australia zoo do this? i thought they did.

in any event "tiger island" is just a commercial endevour. unless the tigers are hand-raised there would be no "tiger island". dreamworld is not a zoo, its a theme park.

so whilst i personally am not too fond of the hand-rearing thing, good luck convincing australia zoo or dreamworld to stop - because they won't!

Bah
02-04-2007

Hand raised cubs breed fine. Bruiser... aka Jambo.. along with his siters (now at dubbo) were all born at Mogo and Hand raised at Taronga... Sri Racha Tiger Zoo has no problems breeding their hand raised tigers with imported, non humanised cats. Dreamworld and all other zoos insist that the cats always maintain their basic insticts (I know for a fact mohan has taken down a peacock and a few ibis) and mating is just one of these basic natural instincts. If anything it could and I believe does in some cases make it easier for breeding. Take Leon and Sammara, the snow leopards. Neither hand raised. were interacted but in nsw the law only allows up to 20 kgs before the keepers can't enter, During the attempts leon was more nervous around sammara while the keeperes were there. Dreamworld is an Educational facility and the studbook manager knew that when sending them there. They do a very good job, better than most at educating the public so yeah I don't see a problem with what I do... slightly biased maybe as habve just applied for the job to help care for those cubs... lol

02-04-2007

but what about for breeding, didnt matter so much about jambo the male at dubbo, his lines are over reped, as with his sisters, but for sumatran especially. also interested to ask when i go back to mogo, what was it like for the mother tiger. any stress

02-04-2007

Whatever the ethics of removing big cats from their mothers at an early age- and I don't approve of this- it is really the first step towards Domestication.

Incidentally,seperating cubs from their mothers temporarily to handle and 'gentle' them is completely different, a perfectly harmless management tool.

Jambo isn't at Dubbo
02-04-2007

Sorry Zoo boy but as far as I know Jambo has always been at Taronga and even though being hand raised succesfully bred with Kuchani, I think that's her name, Johari and Asali, his two cubs, were the result. and I believe the over represented bloodline actually belongs to the male at Dubbo... With the studbook manager looking for a compatible male to breed with Bruisers sisters. but this was three or four years ago. I agree, in most cases I do not think that animals should be hand raised. Dreamworld does it as an educational tool. It does generate alot of money for them but the contribution to Conservation projects in India and Sumatra is also alot higher than that of most other zoos, like mogo with it's white lion project. I guess it's just a matter of what the organisation believe is more beneficial to the species. Breeding tigers for zoos or helping them where they need it... I think that came out a bit harsher than I meant it I believe both are great and don't knock either way.

03-04-2007

yea sorry you are right, my bad

domesticating zoo animals
03-04-2007

grant you made the comment that pulling these cubs is the first step towards domestication, but i disagree. if anything, im guessing hesitantly the animals at dreamworld lead a more, and i hate to diss our other zoos here, healthier and enriched life than at any other institution in australia.
to take taronga as an example, their exhibits for the big cats are fine, the animals have space, exposure to elements and enrichment, etc. but they can also bound accross their exhibit completely in two or three giant leaps, have limited access to novel environmental features and the design of their exhibit limits the animals capacity to see very far.
dreamworld, by virtue of their hand-raising program, can take their tigers out of the exhibit daily for walks, giving the animals exciting opportunities for exercise, stimulation, etc. by being able to go in and interact with the animals, the handlers can vary the animals environment constantly. these animals, in many ways, are leading more natural lives because they can express a fuller range of behaviours and instincts.
its kind of like the elephant program her ein australia. unfortunately, old heman and burma, due to their aggressive dispostion, could never be taken ou of their exhibit. their lives, not to mention their old exhibit, were even more unnatural than these new, semi-domesticated animals we now have.
this argument raises the broader question of whethr captivity does tend to domesticate species. if a species was poorly managed, than perhaps only the tamer members of the species, more comfortable around humans would reproduce and this could lead to less wild population emerging. current breeding theory should prevent this because it draws genetic representation from the whole population.
finally, if animals are going to be kept in zoos, then they should be managed in such a way that is most beneficial for the individual and the species as a whole. clearly, mainstream zoos and commercial operations like dreamworld have different valu sets so the way they acheive these goals will differ. but as pat said, good luck trying to stop dreamworld from doing what theyre doing.

03-04-2007

i think thats a pretty strong argument glyn.

certainly, i agree that the tigers of "tiger island" and "tiger temple" would have a much more exciting life than any of the tigers kept in a more conventional state and be arguably fitter and healthier not just mentally but physically also.

but its dangerous for the keepers and whilst i'm sure they can breed effectively maybe they do lose a little of their "tigerness" in the process.

but i must admit the whole argument about taking the cubs away from their mothers is a little hypocritical in my eyes - for all those concerned about the ethics of separating cubs from their mothers may i ask,

how many of you have ever bought a puppy?

03-04-2007

but for domestic dogs, the mother weans and starts to push the pups away at about 12 weeks- though they are sold at 8 weeks.

03-04-2007

Was the cheetah that attacked the small child in N.Z hand raised? Does dreamworld walk the tigers around the theme park when the public is present? I know they used to have cougars walking around on leads while the public was present. I haven't been to dreamworld for about 5 years. Last time I was there the "trainers" were telling the public that the tigers were habitualized at a young age to accept humans into their daily lives. At the time I thought it was a bit Sigfried & Royish, but now I wonder is it any different than Melbourne and Taronga with the trainers in with the elephants? I guess you could argue that elephants are domesticated in asia and that is what the zoos are portraying. Some places choose to educate the public differently than others. I have no problem with the hands on approach as long as the animals are healthy, happy and safe. I would have a few concerns if the tigers were forced to jump through flaming hoops and the trainers were wearing white jump suits with shiny sequins on them.

03-04-2007

Boof,
Yeah Dreamworld does walk the tigers around the park... The cats are walked probably around eight in the morning for however long it takes , they are on leads bbut allowed to jump and play, once the public enters the park the lead is shortened and the public are permitted to pat the tigers on the backside only, with a keeper on either side of the cats head and a path being cleared in front of the cats. The puma are also walked around the park while the public are there. As far as i know Dreamworld also walks it's tigers in unoccupied parts of the park, in the bushland surrounding the main area. I imagine this would be wonderful for the cats as there are loads of native animals, always new scents and things for the cats to discover... Dreamworld never says their cats are tame however, They say they are really well trained and conditioned to accept people. They also say that their tigers are tigers and will always be wild animals. They see keepers as a part of the family, even though tigers are not pride/pack animals NSW laws state that it is acceptable to house tigers together as they are a social cat. It's the environment in the wild that causes all that tension.

03-04-2007

Sooner or later this will lead to accidents happening. At Howletts and Port Lympne Zoos in Uk their main ethic is (used to be?) to befriend all the animals in their care, without interfering with their normal behaviour,- keepers used to enter the tiger enclosures etc on a regular basis but SEVERAL keepers have been killed there over the years by attacks from their charges. The local council finally got this stopped.

I think Dreamworld's policy of allowing close association between the public and their big cats is also dangerous and will eventually lead to some form of attack on somebody. Its happend so often in the past in circuses and other places where big cats are 'trained' - one day they suddenly turn on the human benefactor.