Legalising Exotic Reptiles in Aust. (again)

01-12-2008

STEVE - The cobra was just an example of a species for arguments sake.

HIX - If given the choice the majority (I know not everyone) of people would stick to the legal avenues of obtaining these species. I know of a few people that keep natives illegally (even though they can quite easily get a license) but alot more who have gone through the appropriate channels.

I understand that it won't eliminate the illegal trade but it will reduce it significantly. and the need to import more exotic species will be reduced if people know where to find them within Australia, therefore reducing (not eliminating but still having an impact) the risk of disease is lessened.

Registering snakes and other reptiles through a licensing system will give us a better idea of what is around. therefore it will be easier to detect illegal imports.

licensing bodies can make it compulsory for applications to be lodged for exotic reptiles to change hands. This would allow them to keep track of all reptiles kept and would make it easier to detect irregularities (sp?) in population numbers. Did that make sense?

I also understand it would be quite expensive but the NPWS or whoever was put in charge of licensing could easily recover costs through license fees and transfer fees.

Again, I acknowledge that it will not eliminate the illegal trade but it will minimise it's effects.

01-12-2008

Mind you, I can agree with Hix' point about many people not wanting to be "legal", and therefore known to the authorities.

Anybody read "Smuggled" by Raymond Hoser? It's a real eye-opener, and details the ham-handed way that various state wildlife authorities treat people who try to do the right thing.

01-12-2008

I was about to mention them, Both Smuggled 1 and 2 are great books.

SMUGGLED COM WEBSITE.

01-12-2008

The "Smuggled" books are based on heresay and innuendo, and very, very little fact. Just because a newspaper says something, doesn't make it true. And if three newspapers say the same thing, that doesn't make it "proof". If you speak to any professional herpetologist they will tell you the same thing.



Hix

01-12-2008

Conclusion: With comparative limited supplies in Australia there will be a shortage in animals available to meet demand. This will lead to people illegally importing animals in order to make a buck. Being registered means you can easily put on your books that you bred them, so the authorities are none the wiser.

Result: Lots more people are keeping exotics, including people who don't know what they are doing but want an interesting looking pet that is different, and will mean more and more accidental escapees, resulting to a greater threat to Australia's wildlife and ecology.



Hix[/quote]

i think there are more exotic repiles around then anyone is aware of.
i think many of these species would exist in populations deemed viable for many decades to come; they arent going to disappear.
the result you've prediced is already happening.
surely, it would be far better to know what is happening.

01-12-2008

Maybe if I gave an analogy with numbers, you might see where I'm coming from.

DEC in NSW has a little over 16,000 people licensed to keep natives.
They believe there are between 10-15,000 people keeping reptiles without a license.

Example: If there are 5,000 people Australia-wide keeping exotics, and it becomes legalised, you will end up with 5,000 - 10,000 people getting licenses, and still have several thousand people keepiong without licenses.

All you will know about what is happening, is from the people who get licenses. You will increase the number of people keeping, but still have the original problem.

Actually, your original problem will be bigger, because when native reptiles could not be kept in NSW, there was nowhere near 5,000 people in the state keeping natives.



Hix

01-12-2008

well making the keeping exotic reptiles in australia illegal clearly hasnt worked so as far as I can see Hix an alternative to what your saying needs to be sought out.

01-12-2008

Hix,

With the greatest respect, your "numbers analogy" argument is about as proveable as some of the arguments in Hoser's books! And we all know just how proveable some of them are!

Glyn has the situation sussed spot on. The numbers of some species here are staggering. I know of Boas in Victoria [yes plural] annually breeding in excess of 50 young. When I first started touring Victoria with our zoo's reptile program about 12 years ago, I would often be approached by characters wanting to sell me a Boa [or two] for about $1500 each. This year the going rate was $50! Think about it. Just one Boa producing 50 young for each of the past 12 years = 1200 baby Boas. And there is certainly more than one breeding Boa out there.

We are way passed the stage of saying "... let's catch these guys [and gals] and destroy their snakes..." Time for a different approach.

I asked the other day but you must have missed it - do you believe that the amnesties have had the effect of "...... rewarding criminal behaviour ......"

02-12-2008

Actually, what I want is a Wildlife Investigation Unit similar to the National Wildlife Crime Unit in the UK. Unfortunately, the people I've spoken to don't seem to think it's a priority at this point in time. Of course, that may change overnight if someone dies after being bitten by an escaped rattlesnake, cobra, puff adder etc.



Hix

02-12-2008

Steve,

Yes, my numbers analogy can't be proven because it was just an example. The only figure than can be proven with accuracy is the number of native reptile license holders in NSW.

However, you really aren't in a position to criticise my numbers, if you think that one boa producing 50 young each year for 12 years will give you 1200 boas!!!

And I did respond to your comment about the amnesties - I said I don't know what they have been doing in Qld, because the only amnesties I've known about was the federal one and all those animals were destroyed. I don't see how destroying their animals can be considered any kind of reward.



Hix

02-12-2008

Ooooops!!!! That'll teach me to post late at night! Hope my animal keeping skills are better than my mathematics

02-12-2008

i think the government would go for the most cost effective method. if it wants to face facts and ever control exotic reptiles in this country than i'd say it will resume licensing again before financing a wildlife crime unit.
license. regulate. monitor-get to know whats in the country already.
then, re-invest the revenue from that on proper biosecurity measures and fight real wildlife crime like smuggling.
funny that the thought of exotic reptiles escaping and establishing wild populations in australia raises such a response...but the issue of exotic birds has hardly been mentioned; though potentially posing no human health risk exotic bird populations wild in australia from aviary escapees are probably more of an eco-system risk than reptiles. and if you want to use the bird example and then expand it to cover any non-indigenous species you could include genetic pollution in galahs in WA and rainbow lorikeets competing with native species in WA, red-browed finches etc.
the point is, any species, plant or animals that are where they werent originally, in great enough numbers pose a threat.
its probably more approtriate to accept and acknowledge these species are in our country and then create some leglislative framework from there. and if the government got so worried about reptiles then it should look at birds too, and maybe even cats.
as for your concern about exotic snakes in australia, i think they do present a risk, yes. and an unquantifiable one. and there is no justification for them being kept. but illegal or legal, the chance of them remaining underground are almost certain.

02-12-2008

I don't understand your logic. If you agree they are a risk, and there is no justification for keeping them, and that there will still be an underground aspect when legalised, then why would you promote legalising them? Becaus elegalising them will not solve the problem of them being underground, it will just mean that so many more people - those prepared to be licensed - will be keeping exotics too. It will increase the potential threat to native wildlife.



Hix

02-12-2008

sorry, i didnt mean to give the impression i think cobras etc should be legalised. there should be a banned species list, just as there is with birds.
but im still for legalsiing non-lethal exotic snakes, turtles, lizards etc and creating a licensing system for them.

06-12-2008

I haven't really looked deeply into the situation of legal/illegal when it comes to Australian reptiles, but the argument of it being impossible to control when illegal and therefore should be legel is nonsense. You can use the same argument about virtually everything that is illegal:

Cannabis: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Harder drugs (cocaine, heroine, etc): Sure there are people using them regardless of the law. Legalize them.
Child porn: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Assault weapons: Sure there are people collecting and using them regardless of the law. Legalize them (yes, I know the situation in USA is a bit special in this case, but here I'm referring to the situation virtually everywhere else).

Of course I don't believe the above should be legalized but it just shows that this argument can be used everywhere where something is illegal but there are still people using it.