Leopards & Jaguars

just to correct my post
09-01-2007

i just re-read my latest post, and what i meant to say is that if having two rhinoceros programs in australia is considered unsustainable than its even more unlikely that a third rhino breeding program could be considered viable.
the indian rhino program also stands against (at least) one of ARAZPA's regional planning principles which is to concentrate on species already in the region.
as for the persian onagers, i really feel that despite everyones feelings on the species it is a good candidate for phasing out. being endangered is beside the point. there is no interest from other zoos. the regional population is low with 0 potential for growth. and all the animals are related. importing a new stallion would only reduce the level of inbreeding, not fix the problem. any offspring produced should head overseas to regions facing a demographic bottleneck, and our aging stock deleted by attrition.

09-01-2007

and zoo boy, 20 meerkats in the region dont create a viable program either mate. its all got to do with, besides genetic variation and age, the generation length of a species.
20 meerkats would begin to show signs of inbreeding alot faster than a group of eland who would again show more signs of inbreeding than a 20 strong herd of rhinos.

09-01-2007

i am aware of tht, thnx anyway, it was in that phase out booklet i think, ill do some research

09-01-2007

'Population Management Programs - Species held, or planned to be held, in more than one ARAZPA institution, in numbers > 20, which require coordinated population management to ensure viability and persistence.'

from arazpa, it sort of relates, i carnt find actually information i had before, and dont argue, i know thts not totally correct

09-01-2007

what the? sourcing enough indian rhinos to build up a population of 20 might prove a bit of a headache. there seems to be a number of trends amongst our regions zoos which make or break these exotic species programs.
the first being quarantine.

1-quarantine restrictions have crippled programs for rothschilds giraffes, bongo and pygmy hippo. all these programs produced early results but now face problems with inbreeding...currently quarantine laws do not restrict the importation of rhinos. but the cost of these transactions is high and will need to be considered in the future, within one generation.
on the other hand programs for non-restricted species can become more viable.

2-lack of founders. when programs like with the bongo start wih only one or two zoos importing a few animals each the programs seem to fail. despite projected regional commitment importing too few animals leads to inbreeding, which affects all the species/sub species mentioned above. additionally, ill health or deaths in our tiny populations of clouded leopard, african elephant, malayan tapir, bongo and pygmy hippo seem to cause these programs to stall. our regional breeding program for the indian rhino rests on the shoulders of 2 individuals. what if one dies.
on the other hand, programs for the black rhino could be considered slightly more viable owing to the large numbers of founders. gorillas, cheetah, white rhino and asian elephant are other examples.

3-lack of regional commitment vs intensive commitment. this is the problem facing persian onagers, some primate species (sulawesi macaque), some carnivores (maned wolves). what level of regional involvement is anticipated for the indian rhinoceros?. without a higher level of regional participation the risks above become acute.
on the other hand, high levels of regional involvement have led to more viable populations of lion, sumatran tiger, african wild dog, red panda, zebra, przewalski horse, oryx, etc.

the indian rhino is one of a number of species including dhole, sun bear, francois langur, binturong, fishing cats, golden cats, snow leopards and silvery gibbons who stand at a management crossroads. im sure we all would like to see these species become established in our regions, adding to a more diverse range of exotic species, but its quite easy to look back and see that when programs start small they tend to fizzle out. against our strict quarantine laws and small holding capacity, as well as lack of regional commitment and coordination, plus the ability of our zoos to obtain funding to build enclosures for these species all we can do on this forum is speculate as to the short-term and long-term future of these species locally.
yes i would like to see them be established but i feel that if you look to the past programs that begin with a few individuals and involve only one or two zoos seem to fail.
sorry if i always seem like the zoo party pooper, im just trying to be practical.

09-01-2007

a few pages back, someone said that just because western plains was good at breeding white and black rhinos they should import indians. western plains is good at breeding przewalskie horses too. and onagers.

przewalksi horses match white rhinos-viable-lots of zoos

onagers match black rhinos-non-viable, collapse-lack of regional involvement, lack of founders.
wesern plains is good at breeding both species, but whilst black rhinos are currently not inbred, if more of the original animals dont start breeding the herd will quickly face a crisis.

indian rhinos-match what? if western plains tomorrow announced it would be importing a pair of somali wild asses against ARAZPA recommendations wouldnt we all be scratching our heads.

09-01-2007

Not at all Glyn, you are one of the few people on here who regularly make absolute sense - cheers mate, I couldn't agree more, and it's about time some people got their heads out of the clouds and faced reality.

cheers
09-01-2007

cheers mate, i agree with the ARAZPA principles, and think that 99% of the time the number one priority should be, in fact, can only be for the zoos to work together.
the only times zoos could afford not to work cooperatively is on local programs for lower vertebrates, some birds, reptiles and amphibians, as in the case of perth zoo's native species breeding unit, taronga's work with bell frogs, weribee with golden sun moth.
in all other cases, and particularly with regards to exotic mammal species, the aim should be regional cooperation.
oh my god, i sound like a broken record.
on the up side im off to taronga again on thursday. anything anyone wants me to check out?

09-01-2007

Enough already, we know all this, can we please stop going round in circles!

10-01-2007

ah my dear friends - it all comes back, in the end, to what exctly a zoo is there for. comservation or recreation?.....