Born Free attacks London Zoo (again) » London Zoo

10-10-2008

Hear, hear. London are trying to improve there tigers life by building this new enclosure, yet it comes under critisism for doing so!

We have to bear in mind that London Zoo is in a urban situation and therefore and developments are going to cost more then of a similar zoo in a rural location.

11-10-2008

About London Zoo:
Is a problem is anything else than personality clash of two particular tigers? I haven't been to London zoo since ages, but they at time kept and bred Sumatran tigers without problem.

About Born Free:
I will use their own logic: one nonsense proves that this organization is failure and should not be listened to. Is there any way a charity which lies in public to get donations (which people wouldn't give otherwise) can be stopped?

11-10-2008

According to the press release about the new find raising campaign, it was noted in a zoo inspection that something needed to be done about there enclosure becasue the tigers had wounds on them from fights that had broken out.

11-10-2008

1. The enclosure is dated now.
2. They've only bred one Sumatran tiger in the past.xxx.. years.(12?)
3. The current pair of Tigers appear incompatable though this female has bred at her previous home(Dudley) where she is being sent back to.

These three points are not necessarily connected but all contribute to the current troubles...

11-10-2008

You are quite correct Pertinax in what you have stated above, I aways thought this exhibit was way to small and I feel that in "the era" that it was built things were built that way to save on costs, LZS zoo at Whipsnade never had any trouble breeding Tigers and they have bred many.

I have always had the feeling that London zoo has lagged behind other major world zoos for many decedes and this was one of the main reasons why there was a big turn down in attendance for such a long time, maybe now after such a long time of stagnation they are stepping out in the right direction with the new Gorllia exhibit, I hope so

11-10-2008

I've never visited London Zoo, but at 35 acres obviously the lack of space is a serious issue there. Back in the days of postage stamp size collections the acreage was perfectly acceptable and the zoo was highly regarded, but in the 21st century this is a puny amount of land for a major zoo. Thank goodness for Whipsnade!

11-10-2008

Raika was sent to Dudley to breed with their male wasn't she. All of the pictures I've seen of Dudley's tigers, there have only been one tiger, which i presume is her. Has Dudley's male died?

If Raika has not been in contact with a male for a while, then it may possibly stimulate her into cycling again on her return to London Zoo?

11-10-2008

Thanx Pertinax,

As to enclosure design and redevelopment:
Which is exactly the reason for ZSL to rebuild the Terraces and look at 5 mio. funding for a new tiger exhibit. With tigers that are essentially solitary save for a short oestrus based breeding cycle in the female (with male overlapping home range) they live separately. To replicate that behaviour and social setting in an urban zoo environment is certainly challenging (but judging by the new gorilla exhibit, one that ZSL will be able to take in its stride).


As to publicity surrounding the issue:
BF are totally off every angle and to me are no credible authority on tigers, let alone captive environments for this species. The UK has its own zoo inspection authority, and BF lack exactly that. Which is also the reason the continuously pamper the media - who in turn ... fond of a little extra publicity ... take their filth with gusto and print it (damage secured and totally beside the real truth). As for legality, I still feel every time BF or any other so-called welfare org thinks it must seek out the media and not work with the zoo concerned every zoo that does confront them in court will come out with flying colours (which will also shut down these ego-trippes once and for all).

Criticism is fine, if only it is positive energy designed to improve rather than break down. And we all know that the eventual elitist suprematist aim of BF and other similarly minded eco-fascists is shutting down zoos completely and cutting the last ties we urbanised people have to our environment and thus a root of support for in situ and biodiversity conservation!

Sorry, if this sounds bang bang bang style ... but I just feel that organisations like BF should be treated with extreme caution and are far from seekers or purveyors of truth and justice for all, least of all zoo animal inhabitants.

Cheers (if this one killed them stone dead),

Jelle

13-10-2008

In fairness to ZSL...

Chessington have a pair of Sumatran tigers.Their enclosure is not a lot bigger than London's, and slap bang next to the Asian lion enclosure, yet they breed successfully. I also saw the new pair at Howletts the other day and they have a quite small enclosure at present(again no bigger than ZSL's)

As Jurek suggested above, I think maybe the current problem with the ZSL ones is maybe just incompitable animals.

13-10-2008

Exactly, this does seem to be the only real problem. Tigers are solitary in wild but zoo have kept them in pairs for a long time and not every pair will get on.

This annoys me because they are trying to sort this out & they get slated for it. Maybe they should keep their existing enclosure and just swap animals, but am sure BF would have something to say about the stated on the existing enclosure then!

13-10-2008

Yes, every pairing/combination is different. The pair at Howletts were sitting side by side happy as you like. I've watched pairs in other zoos where sometimes they snarl a little warning if their paths lead them close to each other but obviously they get along fine as they breed.. London's case with fighting and now separation is just the other end of this spectrum.

But its London's bad luck that Born Free leap on every little problem as if its a major issue. The more I think about it I reckon the enclosure design and the current incompatability are two entirely unrelated issues. But having said that, a new enclosure would be a good thing to- plus two compatable tigers!

Not quite a failure
13-10-2008

In reply to Born Free, the gorilla enclosure in a much better enclosure than it was. There are now 4 gorillas there and there is much more space than before, at least 3 of the group now enjoy more space to roam than before Yet a great deal of the finance has gone into funding a 'human' space and the gorillas still have very little climbing structure and space to 'escape' from the human throng of which there are many. Zaire the oldest of the group is now growing back her hair after losing quite alot of it, I would guess due to stress, due to the massive changes in her group over the last few years. Her daughter now lives in Belfast and is the image of her in fatter and hairier days!

London Zoo could indeed have spent the money in creating a space in Congo etc, to be patrolled over many years in case of poaching etc. This is not going to happen as we all know, who is going to fund this? It is more possible that the conditions for animal inhabitants of zoos will be bettered. I wish that the space for the gorillas had been better designed with gorillas in mind, this would have been possible, more that shutting down zoos and killing the animals that live there which is the natural outcome of preventing zoos.

As a society I very much doubt that we will fund a rehabilitation of every zoo inhabitant to the animal's native land. Also most zoo animals would not be able to survive alone in a rainforest/plain, both physically and pyschologically.

This is indeed a difficult scenario that we have placed animals into many years ago. Lets find a best solution for the animals now. Shutting zoos in one solution but Born Free Foundation would have to suggest an alternative for the many zoo animals.

14-10-2008

Jelle - I know you're angry at Born Free, I get you, I don't think anyone on this forum is defending them. I was simply commenting on why they might be going for this as an issue. Having worked in a zoo that was informally regarded by them as 'one of the acceptable ones', I think their policy has changed from the zoocheck days in the 80s and 90s. The criticism of captive situations has diminished as a proportion of their overall work as they seek other projects to justify funding, like a lot of the big charitable organisations. They clearly do still target certain collections, and species or taxa. They also respond quite aggressively to new plans by zoos to expand or go back into the species they deem as highly unsuitable. My personal criticism of the proposed cost of the ZSL exhibit is not the same as saying they can't be housed successfully at the site. And Jelle, if, as you say hypothetically, you were to publish a paper on me, you would have every right to, but we are talking about organisations, which respond well and robustly to outside pressure in terms of their form and aims. Are you saying no-one should therefore criticise a government if they are not of that country for example?


Taun - ZSL may be trying to improve their lives, but sticking an adult female tiger that bred successfully more than once at Dudley in a former leopard cage for 8 months has raised some eyebrows. If the plan had worked, and she had produced cubs, basically the setup would have stayed the same for even longer. It is strangely fortuitous that the two did not get on, as it has prompted this development to be prioritised.

Pertinax - I agree about the comparative enclosure sizes, but as I think we have spoken about, chessington's tigers get a 5-month break from the public, and howletts have yet to breed theirs. London's just can't get any kind of vantage point or hiding place and distance from the crowds.

14-10-2008

born free, yet again, criticise london zoo. as always, they seem to position their case based upon assumption and a flawed premise. for starters, they assume that the money ZSL has spent on Gorilla Kingdom would otherwise of been available for in-situ gorilla conservation when clearly this is not the case. spending money on a gorilla habitat in london is not compromising gorilla conservation. the £5 million spent by ZSL is not coming out of a global pot of money for conservation, whereby london is taking money from other organisations.
it is more fair to assume, perhaps, that spending £5 million on gorillas in london will result in more long term benifits for gorilla conservation as ZSL field projects continue.
their attack on ZSL's big at breeding program also ignores the work the zoo is doing across the world for tiger conservation. it may be finding it difficult to breed its tiger, but as ZSL coordinates the EEP for Sumatran tigers and is working actively in Asia to protect tigers IMO it is unfair to allege that london zoo is not making a contribution.
the last few years have seen much progress at london zoo, and more to come. i expect they will sustain and indeed increase visitation in the years to come. ZSL may not be attracting record crowds anymore but it must be said that London now has many more competing tourist attractions, as well as a vastly different domesti tourist culture. recent surges in crowd numbers do indicate that in the future london zoo will remain viable, surely a good thing considering its international portfolio of conservation work.
finally, i dont think london zoo seems squashed or cramped on its site, small as it may be. the deliberate thinning out of the collection, focus on endangered species and movement of many bigger animals as led to a varied range of species better suited to the site.
of the larger animals still kept at london i would rate the majority of their enclosures to be fine or very good.
last week i went to london zoo twice, and im going again on wednesday. here is some news....
the two sumatran tigers are seperate, and as pointed out Raika will be returning from Dudley Zoo soon.
the gorillas are all in together and the group is functioning OK. not as much silverback behaviour from Bobby as one might like to see, but Born Free's labelling of the group as disfunctional clearly shows they do not understand the impoverished life Bobby once led.
on the gorilla side of things, the zoo is taking steps I believe to change the enclosure. because of the success of the enclosure the large number of people visiting the exhibit has become a source of mild aggitation to the animals. BF would probably say this is ZSLs fault but zoos around the world have gorillas with glass viewing areas; i think its probably a combination of factors stressing the animals most of which will settle in time. i would assume that Bobby's upbringing and subsequent changes to the groups would result in stress to him particualrly, plus the extra visitors. the change of environment too could also be a source of stress, as zoos the world over have found that older apes take longer to settle in newer enclosures, no matter hwo much better they might be.
the zoo is monitoring hormones in the animals urine and has put up posters in the large viewing gallery to promote more quiet behviour from visitors. within the indoor area screens of logs provide privacy, and outdoors the vegatation is becoming more established; hiding the hot wires.
those who have been critical of the hot wires should consider that by them being in place london was actually able to create a moat of less width than you traditionally see in zoos, so actually the island is larger and the gorillas have more usable space than they would of if the zoo had tried to build wider moats. in terms of privacy for the animals outdoors the undulating exhibit and screened off area at the back of the exhibit do provide a degree of privacy. it was cold when i visited but on both occassions the animals were foraging quite alot outside. it would be nice to see more overhead vegetation and maybe in time this will come; in the meantime the rampant vegetation at the back has created a forest glade type of atmosphere.
and i think anyone who can remember the old enclosures would agree this is a better setting for the animals, and a more meaningful expression of a gorillas habitat for the people who come to see them.
i was very impressed by the bird house renovation, as well as the clore. the children zoo will be amazing, and quite big, with the development extending right down towards the mappin terraces.
the outback theming of the mappin is, to an australian, quite fine. and i particularly liked the into africa exhibit for its creative approach to heritage listed structures, space limitations and financial constraints. very effective. very london.

14-10-2008

In response to Glyn,

Yes I am in agreement. The Gorilla enclosure is so much better than before but my gripe I guess is that so much of the much needed revenue was spent on a splendid walkway etc for the human visitors. It is as ever a matter of commerce. The much needed gate revenue etc is essential and is a balance between attracting visitors and creating an enriched environment for the animals. It is debatable whether visitors care that much about the 'trendiness' of the visitors areas. In Monkey World the visitor areas are not plush and it has been very busy every time I have visited. The welcome from staff and a sense of contributing to a very valuable scheme is very real. Their overheads perhaps do not match ZSL budgets though.

The Gorilla enclosure could have been orignally built with more climbing structure and much more day 'hideouts', the day areas are nearly all on exhibit, this surely could easily be changed. Zaire has lost much hair over the last year. Bobby's behaviour, yes, is very much dominated, I am sure by his difficult first few years, I doubt he will be different, much. Yet it is good to see the gorilla group build up again. About 20 years ago, it was thriving, even in the much cramped positions, those conditions did allow for a hiding away. The vegetation now is growing so given a bit more time will look more natural and allow coverage to a degree. Ever a compromise in every zoo, at least at ZSL we see a chance for a proper change, lets hope it is now taken to an even further degree.