Gorilla Kingdom or Realm of the Red Ape?

Gorilla Kingdom or Realm of the Red Ape?
21-07-2007

With Realm of the Red Ape opened at Chester, Gorilla Kingdom opened at London, and Budongo Chimp Experience due to open at Edinburgh later this year it seems 2007 is the year of the multimillion pound Great Ape Exhibit in British Zoos. All that is needed now is for Twycross to get in on the act with a new Bonobo exhibit.

There’s been much discussion on this forum about the merits of both Realm of the Red Ape and Gorilla Kingdom but little direct comparison. I’d like to know which the Zoointeligentsia of Zoobeat think is the better exhibit. Obviously it depends on what aspects of the enclosures you’re comparing, so to make things easier I’ll clarify and ask which do you think is a better exhibit from an animal welfare perspective and which is better from a visitor perspective?

21-07-2007

I have only been to realm of the red ape and I think that it is amazing. It is the attention to detail that I love. The signs have borders around them that make them blend into the surrounding exhibits, and the aviaries seem to merge seemlessly into the boardwalk. I also love the amount of different species. There is a page about realm of the red ape on my site.

However, there are some minor points that I don't like about it. One of the enclosures has an awful steel fence around it and as Bongorob said, there is a walled in area that seems like an enclosure, but nothing is kept in there. I also think that the zoo could have got another species instead of the belanger's tree shrew. Slow loris maybe.

About Gorilla kingdom; from zoopro's pictures on the gallery, I think that it looks Ok. The interior is of a good standard, and I like the glass tunnel. But the outside is the opposite. As many people have pointed out, gorillas don'y like really flat open areas. There is a trre in the centre of the area, that appears to be the only piece of vegetation in the whole exhibit. Also, Grantsmb has complained about the colubus tunnel. I've seen this on Blue peter and I have to agree that it does look hideous. I'm all for mixed exhibits, but there must have been a better way to make the colubuses interact with the gorillas.

Of course I'm very fond of Chester, so I will prefer the realm of the red ape. It may also be, that I love south east asian wildlife, most Hornbills live there!! But I think that Chester has probably spent it's £3 million better then London spent it's £5.3 million.

Keep an eye out on the gallery as I'll be updating my realm of the red ape film. It's very similar to the Islands in Danger and Elephants of the asian forest film. There will be another one uploaded on wednesday, as I will hopefully be looking around on wednesday during my lunch break.

21-07-2007

Okay, you really need an answer from people who have seen both, to make it meaningful and I haven't seen Chester's yet.

On Gorilla Kingdom I'd rate it very good from a visitor perspective but definately not so good from the gorillas' perspective as its largely an open island with little cover.

21-07-2007

Who has seen both? Chris have you? I will hopefully be going to London if I can manage to persuade my Parents.

21-07-2007

I will be going to chester soon and I have been to london to see Gorilla Kingdom so I will comment then. For the amount of money London spent I was very disapointed. I have 2 favourite Gorilla exhibits which are Congo Gorilla Forest at Bronx Zoo and Pangani Forest Exploration Trail
at Disney's Animal Kingdom.

21-07-2007

I haven't been to Bronx, But that enclosure( And the whole zoo for a matter of fact) looks amazing!!. I also think that San Diego has one of the nicest gorilla enclosures in the world. Compared to this, London's exhibit looks awful. The bonobo exhibit, is very similar and has a nice sized group of Bonobos. There is a lot of African theming in this area. Has London done any theming in the interior of the Gorilla exhibit, to make it feel like a forest? Chester excels at Doing this I think.

21-07-2007

Twycross will not get one for a while, i was in one of there meating not that long ago, next is snowleopards and wading birds these two will be attached to a new entance

21-07-2007

Did you mean me Jonathon, or Bongo?
I have seen both- and it is fair to say both are good- but neither perfect.

I almost regret to say that both disappointed me in one way or another- I think not through any fault of the actual exhibits but more as a result of my own premonitions and expectations.

For me- Realm of the Red Ape is a good exhibit- I think most would agree- however it does fall down in some areas. I think the viewing of the animals from a public point of view is quite restricted- and the animals are mostly viewed on the same level. The outdoor areas are hard to see- particularly the one on the back. The indoor areas were my main grumble about ROTRA though. I don't know why, I just didn't like them. Perhaps I expected lusher foliage, more realistic climbing structures, and maybe glass roofs for a more tropical feel. I know all these would be hard to achieve given the strength and destructive nature of the great apes but not impossible surely. I guess the actual design is a compromise between practicality and aesthetics. I think the indoor areas felt terribly enclosed- quite claustrophobic.

London is a good exhibit from a public point of view- meaning that literally, as it looks good and you can see the animals well. It is spoilt however by the very unsightly and extremely liberal use of electric fencing. It's everywhere. I guess the last thing London wants is a Gorilla escape and they do have a habit of attempting it on islands so its justifiable. Many people have criticised the openess of the exhibit and debated the gorillas tendency to prefer an enclosed space, but that said the exhibit is not too stark and some foliage is bushing up now. Neither is the exhibit too flat- but it's hardly a interesting landscape and you can see right across it. The indoor area doesn't try to trick you- perhaps there's no point pulling the wool over your eyes as we all know its a zoo and thus it plumps for practicality. In doing so it still feels quite pleasant and is less ugly than Chester's indoor areas. I do not doubt it suits the gorillas needs- in fact probably better than the outdoor area.

Both exhibits have a fantastic supporting cast of animals, and in each case the nearby reptiles and birds are displayed in great enclosures. There's also information aplenty in both cases for anyone who can be arsed to read it.

I think I prefer Chester's exhibit slightly better for a number of reasons. From an animal point of view I would say Chester's outdoor paddocks are better suited with good planting etc. Chester's indoor area also has more plants on the public side of the glass which means little more than it looks nice but that's still a reason too like it. Perhaps the one area London beats Chester is the architecture- I think their Gorilla building was quite handsome and the open front came as a surprise.

Bleurgh. Hope all that made sense. My typing or sentence formation may be a little off as my week in London has been a long and exciting one.

21-07-2007

I have seen the plans for Budongo at Edinburgh Zoo and have been watching the construction (I visit the Zoo at least once a week) and it will be impressive and most probably the best Chimp exhibit in the country and could house up to 40 chimps.

Chris's Zoo Gallery @ Fotopic.Net

22-07-2007

Firstly, I haven't seen the Orang exhibit at Chester, but it sounds far better purely for the natural vegetation in the enclosures and for the cover it provides. I expect most users of this site will not see a zoo exhibit with the same eyes a child or occasional zoo-goer might, and with Dudley and Blackpool Zoos sorely lacking in their presentation these animals and the threats facing them, the exhibit at Chester may be inspiring. European zoos are only recently starting to move away from a moated lawn with a dead trees or climbing platforms for Orang Utans. This is why it is so puzzling that London has gone for essentially this same kind of display for its Gorillas. The point made about the abundance of electric wire is very true - I need to read more but there are some studies on enclosure use for various species where 'hot' wire is used to enclose them, the plants in Gorilla kingdom may look fantastic in a few years, but I suspect the animals will not go near them with all the electric fencing. I guess thats the point, but it's a shame when a progressive minority of zoos allow access to live trees (for example Nuremberg).
Somebody also mentioned the Colobus tunnel as something they disliked. While I have no opinion on the aethetics of the tunnel, I wondered if anybody knows of zoos where Gorillas are successfully mixed with colobus, or guenons? Bristol has a tunnel linking the De Brazza monkey enclosure with the Gorilla Island, but as yet I don't think they have attempted to mix them, with both groups having very young animals (correct me if you know otherwise). A few years ago, I believe Port Lympne attempted to mix colobus, and later Diana monkeys, with their Bachelor Gorillas, several monkeys were killed by Gorillas, so the attempts to mix them were halted (there is still a monkey cage with connecting tunnel next to 'palace of the apes, ususally remaining empty). Howletts did the same around the same time, using Spot-nosed guenons and Samango monkeys, this was successful with the spot-nosed monkeys, although they never bred and only 1.1 remain, while the Samango were moved to Port Lympne. At London and Bristol, you might expect that on introduction, any aggression from the Gorillas would cause the monkeys to take to the highest tree, rather than to run, on the ground, to the one exit point available to them on the island. Neither enclosure has a great deal of climbing apparatus, and certainly none that would be out of reach to a Gorilla chasing a colobus monkey.
Does anyone know how the staff at London are planning to go ahead with the introduction of the colobus?

22-07-2007

Duisburg Zoo has De Brazza Monekys with gorillas which seems to go well, and the Safari Park Beekse Bergen has colobus monkeys with a bachelor group of young gorilla males. Many trees there are protected with hot wire (unfortunately...) so that they are out of reach for the gorillas but the colobus just jump over the hotwire and can get away from the gorillas.
And the Gaia Park Kerkrade has gorillas together with back mangabeys, which goes very well.

22-07-2007

I believe Munster Zoo has Gorillas with Red capped Mangabeys too.

Melbourne mixed de Brazzas with the Gorillas recently(see on this forum) but after initially been frightened, they became bolder and started to tease the gorillas. The Silverback killed one and they've now removed the others.

At Port Lympe at least one Colobus was kept with the single silverback gorilla 'Jomie' (in the old round Chimpanzee cage) He caught and killed it. Later he was transferred to London Zoo(who owned him) and he was found to have Hepatitis B. As he was born at Howletts he can surely only have caught it from the monkey? He later died from it, so there can be a health issue here too.

Bristol- I haven't seen the island since the new monkey areas were built but I believe there is a hollow log bridge for the De Brazza monkeys to access the Gorilla Island. I'm more concerned here for the safety of the two young gorillas if they are encouraged by seeing the monkeys crossing to try too and have an accident with the water- despite being males both of these are genetically valuable( I wouldn't want any gorilla to be lost anyway) Hopefully this design will have taken their safety into account..

London. I don't object to the Colobus access tunnel- that's okay- its the fake tree which undermines the attempts at a naturalistic display. Also as Hadley said, Colobus will look for aerial escape routes rather than running along the ground, so its not very natural for them to come and go at ground level(or enter a 'hollow' tree either). Perhaps a simple pole-type support which the Gorillas somehow couldn't climb, coupled with a platform for the Colobus to leap into nearby trees would be a better design- the Gorillas are too heavy anyway to jump as far as Colobus can. I do hope they rethink this aspect at some stage.

Regarding mixing the London colobus- I imagine they will allow them access alone e.g.in the early morning to start with until they are familiar with the layout, and then add the Gorillas. The three current Gorillas are mature, quieter animals and I wouldn't expect them to worry about the Colobus unduly in the long term. I think it will work fine..

23-07-2007

just a few additional points about melbourne zoos gorilla/guenon experiment.

as grant said, eventually one of the gorillas fatally injured a monkey (its assumed to be motaba the silverback) and the remaining two were removed. its supprising, since melbournes gorilla exhibit is th epolar opposite (both metaphorically and probably literally) to londons - it is blessed with a thick cover of vegetation and many large trees where the monkeys had "safe" zones. nontheless the monkeys had no sense, no doubt being raised in their own cage, and frequently harrassed the gorillas on the ground and eventually started to invade their night dens (where the one was killed)

23-07-2007

In that context, it would seem to me that the monkeys needed to learn respect the Gorillas, rather than the exhibit being at fault, and that removing them was a drastic (public relations?) measure. The remaining De Brazza monkeys would surely have learnt to avoid the Gorillas having lost one of their own. I have less of a problem with that kind of incident where the space given to the animals allowed for peaceful coexistence/ avoidance of eachother, than with enclosures seemingly designed with only great apes in mind containing monkeys with very little chance to avoid an angry silverback.

A point was made earlier about the importance of certain bloodlines in the Bristol Gorilla group making the introduction of De Brazza monkeys a risk to the Gorilla infants. I agree with this point, but as we are all coming from slightly different perspectives, it is of value to hear what motivates others on this forum in their concerns for a particular zoo population. I am overwhelmingly concerned with animal welfare, I think the value of people meeting great apes cannot be underestimated, and feel that visitors to say, howletts, come away seeing confident, socially-cohesive ape families, despite the aesthetically harsh constructions they are housed in, and gain a far better understanding of this species than when they have visited a zoo such as London or Blackpool.

24-07-2007

Good point. Surely the ideal situation would to be to create an exhibit that allows the animals to feel comfortable and to be kept in a large family group whilst still appearing in a naturalistic and attractive environment that isn't just a big metal cage. It doesn't seem like there is anywhere in this country that matches that description really- but I'm sure there's zoos in America, Germany and Australia that do. Why haven't British zoos taken this approach- it seems a waste?