Noorjahan Finally Pregnant » Twycross Zoo

20-10-2008

hmmm, I wonder, hope she is transferred to a breeding facility like her half sister,

20-10-2008

Can't remember but it was definately mentioned somewhere quite recently that examination had shown one of them was nonreproductive, and at the same time they said that 'Tara' was still a little young.

20-10-2008

well you can forget it... (Norjahan wasn't bred t Twycross) I'm quite sure they intend to keep the 4 elephants as they are and hope to use AI to try and breed from one occassionally. Unless the EEP can effect a change, or if anymore of them become unmanageable and need to leave.

21-10-2008

Oh that's a dissapointing, then again the only reason Karishma moved was because of a apparent bad behaviour,

21-10-2008

Get used to been dissappointed when Twycross Zoo is involved they seem to do their own thing alot.

21-10-2008

Maybe that worked out better for her moving to Whipsnade

21-10-2008

Whipsnade don`t seem to have had as many of the problems with her that Twycross did.

21-10-2008

I wonder why, she is in a herd with adult females, older than she is thus making her staus lower, perhaps submissiveness? Anyway hope it works out for her breeding plan,

21-10-2008

Karishma has lost her mother and her support and the "princess"-status she had in the Twycross herd. Now she is the youngest and lowest-ranking female and her self-confidence is probably much lower then in Twycross - which makes it much easier for the keepers to dominate her, especially when they are more strict (or should I say more cruel?) and more self-confident then the keeper crew in Twycross. I do not think that this is a good solution, certainly not for Karishma who has lost her family which is very traumatic for a young female elephant, but neither for the keepers in Whipsnade. Experience with similar cases has shown that the effects of moving a so-called problem elephant does not last; Karishma will make friends in the Whipsnade herd, she will get more confident again, she will probably have a calf to protect in a few years. And then she will become a problem for the keepers and a danger again.

22-10-2008

Why do people always need to make assumptions that elephant keepers are cruel?
It's no different to training a pet.

22-10-2008

Because I have seen a lot of elephant trainers using training methods I call cruel. Beating elephants with the metal end of the bullhook, for example. I have been at Whipsnade and their elephant handlers are definately on the "rough" side, not just carrying the bullhook, but using it all the time (and not gently, but with force).

What do you think have they done to make Karishma - an elephant who was no longer obying to her trainers in Twycross - the well-behaved elephant she is at the moment? Offering her treats and saying "good girl, please do what we want"? I have no inside knowledge of Whipsnade so I don`t know what exactly they have done with Karishma, but I know enough about free contact training to know that it had nothing to do with treats and praise. More likely with chains and bullhooks. There are many cases where elephant keepers admitted how to bring an elephant "back on track" - chain it on all 4 legs and beat it with bullhooks until it obeys again.

22-10-2008

Are their training methods really cruel to the individual elephant or is it perceived cruel by you as a spectator. I think that is a valid question!

(Yassa) In most instances I do respect your opinion, but you are really taking it too far here. Elephants are not humans and it is no way to come up with anthropomorphous assessments of elephant behaviour or experience of keeper-elephant situations.

For one, I can vouch that the protected contact method does have its down-sides as those elephants never having experienced the (infamous) mahout's hook are far more difficult to handle than those that have yet had open contact training with keepers. The keeper training in the open contact context is by no means cruel and serves a purpose.

Contrary to this the elephant training methods used in SE Asian forestry to dominate a young elephant and elephant herds can be contested to be of questionable purpose for elephant-human accepted contacts.

I wish you would not confuse these 2 quite diverse methods (captivity/zoo vs. mahout/forestry) of training or their individual setting. They are not alike. On top of that to conclude that elephant keepers are cruel towards their individual charges is ludicruous beyond belief and sells these experienced keepers short.

Besides to be an elephant keeper you require authority, diligence and a deep understanding of elephant behaviour and ecology. If not you will never become an elephant keeper let alone stay one for a considerable amount of time.

I rest my case.

22-10-2008

I really do not want to start a discussion about the pros and cons of free contact vs. protected contact here. So I will keep it short and yes, I absolutely believe a lot of things that happen in free contact training in western zoos are cruel and I have a met a number of elephant keepers in the last years who think the same and not that this is "ludicruous beyond belief".

22-10-2008

I don't think anyone wants to start a debate over FC vs PC etc, it's just the fact that you instantly assumed that all elephant trainers are cruel, when it comes down to the fact that if you mistreat an elephant it'll kill you in seconds.
And to be honest, I don't really think hitting a 5 ton piece of muscle with a tiny metal hook is going to hurt it that much, and I've never seen them using the ankus forcefully on the elephants anyway.

22-10-2008

I`m not assuming ALL elephant trainer are cruel, I am assuming that those in Whipsnade are using cruel training methods.