Paignton Zoo » Paignton Zoo

09-03-2008

Like Jelle, I wouldn't miss american bison. Especially that European animals can be hybrids with cattle, like 99% of bison. Maybe more gaur and banteng?

Wisent is always in need of more diverse holders. These animals have interesting political history - war in Europe means that wisent are in danger of being quickly poaching out. They went extinct in the wild during Russian Revolution, than almost extinct again during WW2, and in Caucasus many were wiped out during two Chechen wars. Logical conclusion is that as many politically diverse holders as possible are needed.

And in time, think about semi-natural wisent in some British forests and valleys. Wild they never be, but many places could benefit from wisent as natural grazer and tourist attraction.

09-03-2008

It would certainly be a natural step on from the current conservation grazing already practiced on a lot of trust-held land in this country. Hopefully we will see the Wildwood trust do something with wisent, although I suspect they will work with re-created 'auroch'-type domestic cattle when they set up woodland reserves. But I agree wholeheartedly, the UK is particularly backwards when it comes to reintroducing species long lost from these islands considering the noise we tend to generate over the conservation of species in the former European colonies.

I wouldn't dismiss American Bison for their impurity, though. It's only our knowledge that it's there that really poses any problem. In fact, those endangered taxa that could successfuly recieve an infusion of new genes from the equivalent domestic stock should their populations get so low as to become genetically weak may have a distinct advantage over those with no such available genetic pool. Aren't our captive gaur all now genetically inferior animals due to inbreeding, much the same as babirusa, anoa and chevrotains are heading that way? True, right now numbers are not so low in the wild that we need consider such drastic measures. I just mean, if an ungulate species was in a real crisis in terms of numbers, and could produce viable offspring with a morphologically-similar domestic breed, what difference is it to us as long as we can bring the species back with enough of its genes to allow it to be phenotypically intact and able to behave and survive in it's original range following introduction? Certainly the herd of plains bison in North America fulfil the exact same ecological role as their (pure) ancestors pre-bottleneck. It could be argued from some studies that the Cambodian subspecies of Banteng is impure having acquired certain genes from the Kouprey, but if the mating(s) happen/happened by chance, it's hard to construct a solid set of criteria for evaluating the conservation value of a (sub)species based on its purity.

I'm still trying to find out whether Marwell did in fact have American Bison....I'm sure they were in the paddock currently occupied by Sitatunga, I would swear they weren't the european bison and that these were elsewhere, but then this could be a case of a failing memory, seeing as on another thread I revealed remembering a white-naped mangabey as a jet-black animal...

09-03-2008

I do not condone the practice of outbreeding endangered taxa with near-relatives. If stocks get so low IN CAPTIVITY we should redouble our efforts to infuse new blood from confiscated wild stocks (illegal trade in endangered species is the first and foremost "winning" trade over that in drugs, so stocks of all of these are available ... and we can confiscate them and make the traders pay in terms of money and prison terms) and improve zoos' ties with in situ conservation programmes.

In what you are saying, you sound like most of the taxa - anoa, babirusa etcetera - are already uber critically endangered and they are not. For you making an example out of the fact that both domestic genes were infused into the wisent and bison. Both were taken into captivity when wild stocks had dwindled to almost zilch and yet we managed to save both taxa be it with some genetic impurities here and there (the bison more so than the wisent, you just have to ask the Polish studbook managers).

09-03-2008

I agree with you fully. There is no reason to start 'domesticating' the species I mentioned that are currently suffering genetically in captivity, while wild stocks exist in the current numbers. I merely use these as an example of how unhealthy a very small population of hoofstock can become when numbers are that low. My metaphor was to compare the genetic health of current zoo populations of gaur, babirusa etc with the remaining world populations of bison at those critical points, just to make the point that we should not disregard a success story with an ungulate species that really did come back from the brink, as it's impurities may have played a significant role in the overall genetic robustness of future generations. And certainly, there's little point replacing American Bison with an exhibit of gaur, as suggested, until there can be some deal worked out to bring much needed fresh genes to the european captive population (perhaps through AI with bulls in Indian zoos?).


!!!!!......which reminds me, has anyone seen that ISIS states that whipsnade have just had a gaur birth? I'm cautiously excited!

10-03-2008

Yep johnstoni,

Whipsnade have just recorded a birth.

Regarding the gaur or any other species with low populations for that matter in Europe, it is imperative that zoos come to a Global Species Management Plan. The WAZA has this as a policy document for future species management, but it is yet to be applied to individual species.

I could mention quite a few species that would really benefit from global management, e.g. okapis, Indian rhinos, Malayan tapirs, Goodfellow's tree kangaroos, babirusa, scimitar-horned oryx .... are just some of the taxa that come to mind. Within a GSMP there is also room for supporting field research and in situ conservation initiatives. These in itself increase the chances of illegally kept endangered species to be absorbed into the captive population (an example has been a male and a female snow leopard from Central Asia that were sent on to NY Bronx and Zuerich respectively).

However for this policy to work all accredited zoos that are member of any of the regional zoo organisations would need to cooperate and/or become involved. That also entails that zoos within EAZA, AZA or ARAZPA establish ties to individual (perhaps sub-standard) zoos in range states. We do not only have a task in management and breeding of endangered species, this also involves education and frequent exchanges of information and animals/plants between regions.

I believe it can be done, but then we need to throw off our hat that defines European or US/Canadian zoos superior to those in South America or South-East Asia, Africa, India, Phillipines and China. If we really want to make a difference in saving our planets wildlife and plant resources, we have to get these regions and concerned people in these countries on board.

I will leave it at that ... (though I feel very strongly about the subject).

10-03-2008

1. We had a discussion about this on another thread. Not all American bison are impure- several herds in the USA, including in Yellowstone and in some other parks are completely untainted by cattle genes. Probably zoo bison come from the impure stocks though.

2. Wisent at Marwell were definately where the Sitatunga live-100% no doubt. I'm very certain too (99%) they never kept American Bison there.

11-03-2008

What is actually stopping a european zoo importing some captive babirusa or gaur from Asia? Have the Bornean/ Visayan Warty Pigs been breeding in Europe for years or are these fairly recent imports?

I know the core of the Port Lympne tapir group were imported as 2.2 from Singapore (tho this may have been about 15-20 years ago).

A couple of years back Toronto zoo were all set to import a large group of Proboscis monkeys from South-east asia that were in captivity following the forest fires (I guess howletts were doing the same thing at that time with langurs, that's how they got the grizzled leaf monkeys). They backed out (correct me if I'm wrong) due to public opposition and the rate at which the monkeys held in Indonesia were dying. So, what, really are the barriers to bringing in new blood to dwindling (european) captive populations? How would a global management system speed up the red tape associated with international movement of endangered species/ quarantine/ expense? I always assume things aren't possible and we are left with what we have, but then you get something to remind you that things aren't impossible, with a small UK cente (the RSCC) importing Sun Bears, and Palawan binturong for example.

Or is your point more that all zoos, globally, should give all their species over to global managment programs to stop some institutions holding onto and 'wasting' the genes of their valuable animals?

12-03-2008

I think someone posted this birth on the forum several months ago. Its presumably only just been updated on ISIS.

12-03-2008

ok, yes found it, sorry.

12-03-2008

I think this pair of Gaur have bred before but this is the first live calf they've had. They are now kept in the ex Black Rhino yards and enclosure near the Giraffes- they were the only things I missed seeing on my last visit(before the calf) as I thought they had died/ been moved out..

12-03-2008

My point is both ..... actually ...

F.i. the babirusa EEP is trying to import new captive-born babirusa from known wild-caught founders ex Indonesia. However, the red tape and paperwork is usually holding up a swift transaction (even within Europe itself). Only if zoos make partnerships with in-situ programmes and operate as a consortium does this bear fruit.

My second point is that we can not deny the fact that f.i. all captive douc langurs are part of worldwide "meta" population that needs all the genetic input available in captivity for the survival of the species both in captivity and in the wild. The world zoo organisation WAZA is committed to having all regional zoo organisations (be they EEP, ALPZA in South America or the Thailand Zoo Organisation) to work to work towards the goal of cooperative meta population management of endangered taxa and support of in situ conservation through technical input, financial support and making available zoological and management expertise for in situ research programmes.

12-03-2008

I agree as far as the captive remaining populations away from their lands should be managed cooperatively, only this kind of happens as much as is possible already, with the same obstacles (cost, law, individual institutions dragging their heels) that would persist even with a global management system. As for captive stock in the country they are native to.....it's a tricky one. Why should we fix deals to get more babirusa, etc, into temperate zoos? If the captive population is low, why not repatriate them all to the countries their ancestors were essentially stolen from, and allow them to augment the captive population and conservation efforts in their homeland? Wouldn't that free up TAG time and institution space for genetically viable species needing more room for the population to grow? Why shouldn't we trust those nations to conserve these species themselves?
I know we'd like to see more unusual species etc etc but actually, if we were really serious about more than topping up the zoo population when it gets low, we would be as ready to consider giving up a species and sending the remaining animals to their countries of origin. Certainly most western european countries are a bad example of species conservation. In the UK it has taken years to even get an agreement to experimentally release....beavers!
On yet another tangential thought, I wouldn't be surprised if, as AI techniques improve and the success rate goes up, there is greater cooperation internationally to donate frozen semen to maintain captive stocks. I know the Henry Doorly zoo has been looking at this with Gaur, it could eventually turn out to be the most ethical and cost effective way of saving dwindling captive stocks.

12-03-2008

Red tape, unfortunately.

I am very unhappy with situation where even animals which are commonly poached in Africa or SE Asia and sold as pets or meat, are next to impossible to import. Because, everything is protected - on paper only.

Most tropical zoos and reserves are very badly managed, which you might see e.g. on threads about SE Asian zoos in this forum.

Often even if foreigners want to finance them, this breaks down due to corruption, political disorder or xenophoby. It should be judged case-by-case.

E.g. few years ago all sumatran rhinos in breeding centre in Indonesia died. Inspection found dirt and rats all over the place. And this was one of better, foreign-financed, publicized plans.

I would never say that tropical animals in their home country are automatically better than in zoo in Europe or America. Not that all Western zoos are reserves are good. But in tropics it is magnified by a factor.

12-03-2008

I wouldn't really say that the ex-situ breeding program for Sumatran rhinoceros in the western world was any better. Only it's kind of up to the countries to which these animals are native. If they manage their own conservation projects badly, so be it. Like I said, being British, who am I to wade in and criticise another country in it's decline of various fauna? If we had a sizeable population of Sumatran rhino in zoos globally, fine, lets cooperate to maintain genetic diversity and try to conserve this population, but failing that, it is down to those governments to decide if they have enough desire to save the species or willingness to take funding and support from western institutions.
It isn't up to europe or the US to save endangered species in the countries we have impoverished and dominated for so long. If they accept our offers of help, great, but we don't have an automatic right to demand that they protect these species above other budgetary responsibilities.

12-03-2008

Also, historically, Indonesia is the mess that it is because british and American governments, with the CIA, armed Suharto to the teeth and helped install him, thus beginning a brutal era in Indonesia's history, which also as you know wiped out two thirds of the population of east timor. At the start of his reign, a shameful assortment of western CEO's and people from the world bank, IMF etc met with Suharto to discuss the fire-sale of the countries' natural resources which has continued ever since. We in the west haven't really helped the people of Indonesia to be in a position to conserve their wildlife in the last few decades. I fully see your point, it is tragic and awful when such a charismatic rare mammal experiences such losses in a conservation programme, the current trend of zoos funding related in situ projects is vital and needs to continue, but not to morph into some kind of neo-colonial arm into the wildlife resources of another country. As a British citizen, it really isn't for me to scold a country like Indonesia for not bad stewardship of its endangered species. My lifesytle still impacts negatively on the same animals I wish to see conserved. Do you check the ingredients on every food item you buy for palm oil? Do you only by certified wood products? (hardware stores in particular, broom handles, wooden blinds, so often made with illegally-harvested ramin).