Port Lympne black rhino » Port Lympne Zoo

02-02-2008

I do not entirely agree on this with you.

I do think that an institution like Chester with a big group of black rhinos needs an alternate bull. Quinto being the more tested of the 2 bulls (Sammy is only 7-ish), I think HE should be the breeding companion for Rosie (aggressive, nervous disposition ... etcetera). The same holds true for all other important EEP Black rhino holders (Berlin Zoo, Dvur Kralove, Zuerich Zoo).

I still subscribe to the opinion it is best for the EEP to import several new males (and not just the 1) of different genetic lines from the US (where bulls are in over-supply). Later today I will make up a list of good candidates (excepting the Cincinnati line of black rhinos already represented in the EEP).

02-02-2008

Chester currently have already have 3 bulls- Quinto,Sammy and Magadi 2nd(from Port Lympne)- they presently only have four cows- Kitani, Manyari, Rosie, Ema. That's almost a 1.1. ratio! Magadi and Ema are a mating pair, Sammy is virtually proven with Kitani now (and is also Mayani's mate). That only leaves 'Rosie' for Quinto and I believe she has behavioural problems which will prevent natural breeding even with an experienced proven bull. If they decide not to risk mixing Quinto and Rosie again then Quinto could easily be spared. Otherwise he's wasted where he is.

I agree a totally unrelated bull from outside the region would be best for Port Lympne but Quinto is 'local' and could be sent to Port Lympne much more speedily.

02-02-2008

Port Lympne have the space to hold two or more breeding bulls- so they could take Quinto(now) and a USA male (later). I expect you'll say if they were to have two new bulls it would be better if it wasn't Quinto but both were USA males from different lines....

02-02-2008

Just a point: Quinto is fine breeding material in regard to Port Lympne stock. However, Magadi at Chester is still not proven (allthough presently trying and looking compatible with Ema). So, my point on 2 different proven bulls still stands.

My comments however are also directed at the desperate NEED to infuse entirely new genetic material into the EEP population. From that point of view it is imperative that several SSP born unrelated males are sent to EEP collections a.s.a.p. (even if that means gruelling docu paperwork and sundry). I will haggle Mark P. on this point a little!

03-02-2008

Isis says that Chester has only 3.3. Which female has moved?

03-02-2008

Rosie is the only one that comes to mind...

03-02-2008

Probably an ISIS inaccuracy...

03-02-2008

That is the more likely result.

03-02-2008

I agree with you that new blood IS needed- so Quinto's availability(or otherwise) is not that relevant to the argument.

As Port Lympne went outside of Europe to aquire 'M'wakini', its quite possible they will do so again now. Did he father any calves at Port Lympne?

03-02-2008

Jelle, why do you think there is a "desperate need" to bring in unrelated males from the U.S:? Are all black rhinos in Europe already related to each other at a degree that inbreeding problems are expected? I agree that bringing in unrelated animals is always GOOD but I can`see a desperate need as long as it`s still possible to find unrelated mates for many of the animals in breeding age. And inbreding in the first or second generation is not necessarily harmful, neither. Other then importing new males from the US, I might be easier to exchange rhinos between P.L. and mainland Europe - my understanding is that only very few exchanges have happened in the past, with the result that the animals in P.L. and the rest of europe are pretty much unrelated?

03-02-2008

Its also worth noting that Chester's mature bull Quinto has only two offspring- the two younger females at Chester- so he isn't overrepresented as yet. However, Quinto & Pangani came originally(i think) from Zurich Zoo and I don't know about the genetic representation of that line as a whole...

04-02-2008

Re Yassa: Most continental eastern black rhino are of the Berlin Zoo, Dvur Kralove and Zuerich lines. Most combinations possible between these 3 major breeding lines already exist. Magdeburg Zoo's separate line is somewhat represented in the Berlin and Dvur lines.

The Chester/London/Port Lympne line is entirely separate to the continental line. Only 2 individuals have been sent from the UK to the continent (bull Parky to Zuerich - without siring offspring - and bull Mweru to Dvur - now proven with 1 Dvur cow).

A greater representation of the Chester/London/Port Lympne line into continental Europe is needed. I think that is 1 task the current EEP Species Coordinator Mark Pilgrim needs to take up in earnest.

However, in order to expand the breeding possibilities new unrelated males ex the SSP need to be integrated as soon as possible. I know that negotiations are currently under way for 1 bull to come to Europe (no indication from which SSP collection nor where the bull is going.

Given the heavy surplus in SSP collections bull wise and the possible new breeding lines they bring with them, it will improve the genetic status of the growing EEP population.

Both the more frequent integration of UK animals into the continental population with a complimentary import of 2-3 new unrelated bulls ex SSP will greatly improve the genetic make-up of the population.

This also given the fact that the growing EEP population is expected to make an important contribution to reintroduction efforts in both Kenya and Tanzania for the eastern black rhino. The space freed up by sending surplus well represented eastern black rhino to reintroduction projects in Kenya and Tanzania will free up space to absorb new individuals in the continental population.

Re Pertinax: Quinto is a half-sibling to Pangani. So their calf is somewhat inbred.

Re WrithedHornbill: the ISIS figures for Chester Zoo have been incorrect for over 1 year. It should read 3.4 individuals (bulls Quinto, Sammy and Magadi and cows Rosie, Kitani, Manyara and Ema). Easy adding up those it? Really a problem for the data clean up campaign under ZIMS .........

If I forgot any further queries by you all, please ... forgive us! Just mention it again and I will get onto it.

04-02-2008

1. Chester's group is linked to the continentals via Quinto and his two daughters...

2. Do you think the Zurich line is heavily represented and that Quinto would be better staying where he is? If not, what should happen for him?

05-02-2008

1. Fine. But I meant that most Chester Zoo stock is derived from the old London/Whipsnade stock (and similar in development to most of the Port Lympne herd).

2. The Zuerich Zoo line is not heavily, but well represented, if only on the bull side. The cows still have much potential for breeding.

Bull Quinto is Chester's proven heir. Proven bull Kifaru II at Hannover Zoo is of early Zuerich stock (first import including the US born male from Chicago Brookfield). Bull Ursoni at Krefeld is a latter day Zuerich born proven.

The cows are: Siwa at Pont Scorff Zoo (a proven breeder twice with her halfbrother at Dortmund (now the breeding bull at Krefeld Zoo) and Wanda at Zuerich Zoo (the last born still at Zuerich and forming a trio with Samira from Hannover and proven bull Jimm ex Dvur.

06-02-2008

The only ex London/Whipsnade rhino at Chester now is 'Rosie.'