Twycross Orangutan moves. » Twycross Zoo

25-11-2007

I have some pictures of the gueneons at Twycross. Not good with Guenons. Can tell the debrazza's and Hamlyn's, but that's where my knowledge goes to I'm afraid. I'll post them on the gallery.

25-11-2007

So the youngster 'Zoolu,' which came from Paignton, must have died. (Its always very difficult to find out....)

Justin's father came from Marwell(to Suffolk) and they are crossbreds too so, yes, he's a mixture. But actually I don't have that much objection to crossbred giraffes breeding- together- as long as they're kept seperate from pure groups.

Regarding the Guenons, i can't actually ever remember a baby Guenon at Twycross, though they must have bred a few in the past. Maybe they are not quite so easy as the Langurs and Colobus- b/w Colobus in particular being extremely free breeders in zoos. Port Lympne(particularly) and Edinburgh do quite well with Guenons though.

26-11-2007

Howletts and Port lympne do well with De Brazza and Diana monkeys, and have done so for years. To my knowlege, they have not been successful with their Greater and Lesser Spot nosed, and Syke's monkeys. I don't think these have bred at all, and the greater spot nosed died out a few years back. Very few Uk zoos seem to have done well in the last 20 years with any guenons apart from Vervets, Patas, De Brazzas, and to a lesser extent Diana monkeys. Colchester and Edinburgh have had some recent success with some of the rarer guenons which gives hope that they may continue to do so and become for these species what Port Lympne is for Dianas and De Brazzas.

26-11-2007

Edinburgh have bred L'hoests I think. We need to breed Hamlyn's and the spot nosed guenons, or we'll lose them from the region

26-11-2007

Zoolu did indeed die was told what happened but cannot rember what.On the subject of Guenons Blackpool have a good breeding group of De Brazzas,and Writhedhornbill never mind just those species i would say none of them are that well established in the U.K for them to disapear altogether,although some like De Brazzas and Diana are in a better position than the rest.

Guenon monkeys in UK>
26-11-2007

If you look on ISIS you'll see that Guenons are scattered through UK zoos but with a few exceptions(such as Howletts/Port Lympne) are mostly only pairs, several of which are non-breeding. From memory De Brazza and Diana monkeys are held by the following;

De Brazza; Blackpool 1.3 (breeding) Bristol.1.2.(breeding) Port Lympne 4.6. (breeding) Howletts 1.3.(breeding?)

Diana; London.0.2. Drusillas.1.1.(from Colchester) Marwell 1.1. Twycross(?) 1.1. Paignton 1.2 (breeding) Newquay 0.2.(have bred) Exmoor. 1.0.
Port Lympne 4.4.1 (breeding) Edinburgh 2.4.1.(breeding)

Twycross also list 2.2. Roloway(Diana subspecies) monkey.

With DeBrazza's, only Port Lympne so far has a decent-sized group. With Dianas only Edinburgh and Port Lympne have bred a number. Paignton have just started to breed them. Newquay used to have at least six at one time so have bred them in the past.

26-11-2007

I think Colchester has also bred from their pair of L'Hoests monkeys too. I believe these are the only two UK zoos with this species.

Hamlyn's Owl faced monkey- are now only at Edinburgh 2.1.1.(breeding) and Twycross 1.1. This species has dwindled in the UK in recent years, formerly they were also at London and Banham Zoos as well. London's last male went to Antwerp before Gorilla Kingdom opened. Edinburgh were formerly the leading UK breeder but now there's a real danger this species will die out in the UK.

26-11-2007

Yes, you're correct. They probably have as many Guenons as anywhere,(with possible exceptions of Edinburgh or Twycross but I think numerically Port Lympne have more) in the UK. The Sykes' used to be in with Gorillas but are now seperate, yet have never bred. They do have good groups of Diana and De Brazza though- especially the latter.

28-11-2007

Exmoor did breed from their Diana pair last year, what happened to them? Norfolk wildlife centre I think briefly had De Brazzas before losing their license, does anyone know where these went?

Some years ago Cricket St. Thomas had moustached monkeys, they were stunning.

28-11-2007

Did Exmoor lose their female and baby perhaps. They need to get together with Newquay(o.2.) unless theirs came from Newquay originally-which is quite likely.

I didn't know Norfolk WP. had De Brazzas- a guess but did they come from Suffolk WP?

And another guess- did they then go to Bristol, who aquired a pair for their new Monkey area, which have since bred?

28-11-2007

I have postcards of both Moustached Guenon and Spot-nosed Guenon at Cricket St Thomas.

28-11-2007

I can add to Pertinax's list. ISIS lists these guenons as of 9th November.

L'Hoest's Colchester 2.1.1 ( 1 born within 12 months), Edinburgh 2.1 Twycross 1.0

Syke's Port Lympne 1.3

Lowe's Twycross 2.2

Lesser spot-nosed Twycross 1.1

Lesser Spot-nosed (nominate subspoecies) Howletts 1.1 Twycross 0.1

Crowned Twycross 0.1

Recent UK births include

Diana Edinburgh 1, Port Lympne 1, Paignton 1

Hamlyn's Edinburgh 1 (also recently bred by Leipzig and Mulhouse)

L'Hoest's Colchester 1

de Brazza Howletts 1

28-11-2007

I get the impression that we are only now starting to really see which primate species don't thrive so well in zoos....as the longevity of individuals has really masked the fact that a lot of guenons generally don't reproduce well in captivity. It may have been some years since the last wild-caught animals were aquired by UK collections, but I'm pretty sure it was this that kept many species being represented and the remnants of that era are still quietly ageing in the remaining populations. I speculate here, what are your thoughts? I'm pretty sure there is nowhere breeding spot-nosed or Samango or Owl-faced so prolifically that they are supporting the general captive populations? There is an overall decline I think. It seems nowadays that if a collection fails to do well with difficult species, they can no longer acquire them, I'm thinking specifically of Banham and Africa Alive, although that may be entirely of their choice, it's amazing how many guenons they have had which have disappeared, to now only have a small vervet group.

Does anybody know if the current groups of non-breeding guenon species in the UK were actually wild-caught? If so, it may well be that they never adjusted sufficiently to produce a first generation of captive-bred monkeys, thus giving us the current situation. It would be very interesting to map out, for the last few decades, where the centres of breeding have been across europe for the various guenon species.

De Brazzas and Dianas are really only in larger numbers in the UK due to Port Lympne, interestingly Blackpool seems to do well with several monkey species that other zoos seem to struggle to establish at the same rate, notably the King Colobus and Titi monkeys.

28-11-2007

Until a couple of years ago, Battersea Park also had Diana monkeys. I was surprised when Drusillas recieved the colchester Diana pair. Maybe they are an old/ non-breeding pair?

29-11-2007

They were exchanged for some Lemurs(or marmosets?) I imagine they didn't breeed so Colchester traded them. Marwell also have a non-breeding pair of Dianas- the first time I saw them they were incredibly fat- now they are sleek and active- providing its the same pair!

Its interesting to speculate on the past and future of Guenons in captivity, not only in the Uk but generally. I don't think they are difficult to breed from but one of the problems has been traditionally zoos have only kept a pair of this species( of guenon) or that species and so successful breeding is often paralled by deaths- and if one of a breeding pair dies its hard to get a replacement animal so then breeding stops altogether- that would be quite true even with the existing Diana or De Brazza monkeys in UK now.

I've noticed with the Hamlyn's monkey(another of my favourites) that there is a distinct pattern in several groups, they start as a pair or trio and breed a couple of young, then one or more die and that's the end of the group,as replacements are difficult to get. The survivors get moved to another group and the original zoo e.g. London and Banham don't have them any more. Although they are breeding at Edinburgh it seems to be happening there too- just a few years ago there were FOUR adult females, now there is one. What happened? Twycross haven't bred them yet to my knowledge.

Some years ago Chessington built up a group of six Dianas- at that time it was reportedly the largest group anywhere in UK. Port Lympne have superseded that now- but the Chessington group in the meantime seems to have vanished. The Guenon species have previously been taken for granted but now its apparent they are actually thin on the ground. Its a similar pattern in European, as well as UK zoos, with mostly very small numbers in those collections that do hold them.

I think those zoos which do have viable groups(in fact these are mostly breeding pairs) of Guenons, which nearly all Diana and De Brazza, plus a few Hamlyn's and L'Hoests, nowadays) should try and consolidate their animals and build up decent-sized groups. Howletts and Port Lympne are proving its possible, though I'd like to see their groups get bigger still... Fortunately they have the space and tend to 'stockpile' whatever they breed. Twycross has the widest range of species in the Uk but only in pairs or singles and their breeding record doesn't look particularly good with this group.

You also make a good point about how, lacking any further imports, these lovely monkeys could become even rarer in captivity. Lets hope a few at least can be 'saved' as viable zoo populations.