Wolf cubs 'rescue' » Cefn-yr-Erw

11-08-2008

Sounds to me like a full-blooded zoo breeding program.

11-08-2008

As I metioned I haven't seen any of the animals at the sanctuary, but I believe that it is true that the two wolves are in fact hybrids (I don't think the park advertises them as anything but wolves). They may in fact be the only true hybrids in this country, contrary to many reports of wolf-crosses in adverts. Most are alsation or husky crosses!

I think that Monkey World are having their cake and eating it too. I mean breeding orangs for what??? There are too many Bornean orangs that need rehabilitation in Borneo (and not enough forest) already. It comes back to the old problem of what defines a zoo. Or a wildlife park, safari park or sanctuary.

11-08-2008

Well, if our zoos continue to evolve and improve, maybe there will be 5 times the orang holdings in europe in a few years, and indonesia may be reforesting and drawing on world captive stock forty or fifty years from now. So it makes sense for Monkey World to breed from genetically valuable animals, plus orangs breed so slowly it's not going to suddenly run out of space.

12-08-2008

Again this sounds like Monkey World behaving like a zoo...

I don't have any personal problem with breeding orangs in captivity, I just don't understand why a rescue sanctuary is doing so. Unless MW wants to change its remit...

12-08-2008

It's okay that they are breeding their orangs, surely? It's not like they are going to run out of room. If they began deliberately breeding from their chimps or capuchins, I think it might be more in conflict with their ethos. I think there would be many comments against monkey world on these threads if they were holding their gibbons and orangs as non-breeding rescue animals (look at the vitriol against Twycross re their elephant/gorilla situation). But I agree that somewhere along the line they appear to have branched out into captive breeding alongside the better-publicised primate rescue role.

12-08-2008

I too am rather perplexed at Monkeyworld's position over Orangutans. Unlike the chimpanzees, they seem to be actively encouraging breeding, but is this in order to repatriate them? It would seem doubly difficult (impossible?), and more expensive, to repatriate Orangutans born in the Uk back to Borneo than from within S.E Asia... I can't see any other reason for them otherwise to promote breeding- are they now part of the EEP programme for this species I wonder?

I believe they are now also acting as a 'nursery school' for the EEP for rearing/socialising infant orangutans that have had to be handraised.

Monkey World chimps
13-08-2008

I imagine most of the Monkey World rescued chimps were of wild origin . I wonder if any attempt has been made to identify which sub-species they belong to .

I think it is West African chimps - not certain of the sub-species - that are now considered to be very rare and subject to a zoo breeding programme . It could some of these Monkey World animals might be of value for this programme - why not a proper breeding group of chimps at Monkey World .

13-08-2008

Yes, correct, West African chimpanzee- I think it is P.t. verus. And a good point that Monkeyworld may well have some in their colonies. But could they find out which individuals. Is there a DNA test? And would they set up a breeding group? At present they try to prevent their chimpanzees breeding though they are not altogether successful.

13-08-2008

The other question of whether is fair for these chimps to be breed from, considering many have suffered mentally?

If they could find pure species that were mental okay, then they should certainley try to breed from them.

13-08-2008

I think they are all on contraceptive implants but sometimes they remove them or get pregnant somehow and babies are born. I don't know how many there have been mother-reared or whether impaired females can rear their own offspring.
But I think their remit is to give these chimps a happy life rather than actively reproduce them. But as Johnstoni has pointed out previously- the happiest and most natural captive groups in primates are those that contain babies.

13-08-2008

The females i believe are not on an contraceptive implants as the males have all had the snip which pretty much stops any breeding.

13-08-2008

That must have been done to prevent any more breeding as I know in the past that contraceptives weren't 100% preventing births, whereas vasectomising the males definately will.

13-08-2008

Breeding can still happen post-vasectomy occasionally, and there are obviously some infants born at MonkeyWorld, but nearly all of them, unsurprisingly, have had to be hand-reared. I think there is one female who has raised her own young, but she is the exception. So, contrary to what I previously thought, the value of breeding from the monkeyworld chimps is no greater than the stimulation (and stress) of introducing new animals to the existing groups, unless of course the infant is born and raised in the group.

13-08-2008

From memory , one female has bred twice and reared both youngsters in one of the groups . The Television programmes about MW say that the presence of the young was very enriching for all of the group .

If they have rare West African chimps - I think they can be identified by DNA tests - and , assuming the particular animals are reasonable normal in behaviour , I would like to see them breeding . They are part of the EEP for orangs and golden-cheeked gibbons , why not for some of the chimps ?

14-08-2008

While there is merit in looking for pure subspecies of chimp within the captive populations, there must be some thought to how this will alter group dynamics. Chimps are very unforgiving when you remove certain individuals. In some ways the Monkey World chimps are worth looking at because they should be from wild founder stock and in non-breeding situations. However the trauma of their past may cause a few problems too.

Is there an EEP for West African chimps?