Wolf cubs 'rescue' » Cefn-yr-Erw

14-08-2008

I'm presuming so as I believe there is a recommendation out for zoos to concentrate only on breeding this 'pure' species rather than 'crossbred' or other races.

I don't actually know if any UK zoos have known 'pure' West African chimps or are involved with breeding them.

Western Chimpanzee EEP
15-08-2008

I have just checked out the 2005 EEP Yearbook - the latest published .

The studbook is co-ordinated by Mr Frands Carlsen from Copenhagen .

The traditional method of identifying the 4 sub-species is by mitochondrial DNA but a new CD4 test is being developed . They plan to test all remaining European chimps .

As at 31.12.2005 49.82 animals are listed in the studbook - including 0.4 at Wareham ! I suspect these could be the 4 young females that came from a Dutch laboratory . ISIS list 57.83.2 in Europe as at 5.8.2008 including 0.2 at Dublin , 16.26 at Hilvarenbeek ( ex Dutch labs ? ), Leipzig 7.13 and Romagne 10.0 . I wonder if Edinburgh has plans to get hold of some for their future breeding plans .

15-08-2008

I think this has been mentioned before and the answer is possibly yes- since they want to increase the size of their group considerably. Presumably they would keep their existing chimps too but only allow the West Africans to breed. Very few other Uk zoos have the scope to be able to do that.

16-08-2008

have edinburgh got two enclosures for the chimps so both gorups could be kept without one group being inside and one out?

16-08-2008

I would guess that they will castrate/vasectomize any unknown males and put the females on the pill. Will be an interesting introduction...

16-08-2008

would they risk the occasional accident that may occur beetween the two subspecies?

16-08-2008

If they were careful then they shouldn't breed. I have no idea what the age or composition of any of Edinburgh's chimp group.

16-08-2008

Yes, they could have one large social group but with all their existing chimps sterilized & only allowing the purebreds to breed. Eventually, a long time ahead, the crossbreds would die out.

Edinburgh currently have 11 chimps (all mixed race); 3/4 adult males, 3 or 4 adult females and a couple of youngsters. Their full details appear on another thread.(Edinburgh/Budongo?)

01-09-2008

I can completely understand monkeyworld breeding their orangs. They protect animals because morally they feel it is the right thing to do. They do not breed those animals for the same reason. But they cannot justify to themselves sitting back and watching a species go extinct when they have valuble individuals of that species in their care. Morally to them there is no question. It's a shame that other rescues don't think in the same way.

Animal welfare and conservation crosses over all the time. I'd personally attack them more if they refused to share, and kept their animals out of the eep. I'd call that more irresponsible. Who cares what their name is if it cares for the animals properly and we need the genes.

02-09-2008

I'm sorry zelda but this is a load of garbage. Monkeyworld is picking and choosing what it 'believes' in. I don't see any problem with an organisation wanting to be specifically a sanctuary for unwanted, ill-treated or surplus animals. Nor do I see a problem with one that breeds animals specifically for ex-situ/in-situ conservation purposes. And thirdly, I don't see a problem with an organisation wanting to do a little bit of both. My main bugbear with Monkeyworld's stance is that it claims to be just a sanctuary for rescuing primates. That would be fine if that was what it is doing. But it isn't. Monkeyworld are breeding white-cheeked gibbons, woolly monkeys and Bornean orangs. They have obviously linked up with an in-situ breeding/release program for the gibbons with Vietnam. Yet there is already a EEP for buffy-cheeked gibbons, which Monkeyworld does not appear to be part of. My guess is the woolly monkeys are of mixed ancestry (as they are in Europe) and so are of display value only. But the situation with the orangs confuses me. If they were part of the EEP breeding program then I would understand. But there is no point just breeding orangs for breeding sakes. They must be either part of a proper breeding program or part of an in-situ release. Given the huge number of animals that are in rehab centres in Borneo, I know for a fact it is not the latter point. If they wanted to justify the morals of keeping the orangs then Monkeyworld would spend alot more of their money on in-situ work - which reputable orang-orientated zoos do. I don't believe that Monkeyworld spends any of it's donation budget on orangs. Moreover many of their 'rescue' animals are just surplus zoo stock which Monkeyworld has taken on, but could have gone to other zoos.

Given that the major focus of the park is and will always be chimpanzees, why are they not purposely breeding similarly endangered chimps? Because there is no reason to do so. None of the chimps are likely to be repatriated to West Africa. So conservation value - largely zip.

I do not have a problem with the way they house their animals, and in fact they are miles better than other so-called world-class primate facilities. I have a problem with their high-handed stance of 'rescuing' animals when they are not actually doing so (not to denigrate when they actually do so). It is just another example of good PR, backed up by a popular TV show.

02-09-2008

Well said Tetrapod i totaly agree with every thing you`ve just said.

02-09-2008

OK. fair enough. I've never actually been there, and certainly wasn't aware that they weren't part of the EEP. That seems very odd.

02-09-2008

The Orangutan situation there has always perplexed me too. It started by the then(?) curator being given a baby Orangutan(amy) as a gift when Gordon Mills relocated to America. Then they got Banghi from Chester as a mate for her, and eventually this pair produced Gordon before Banghi died.. Later they began to import the larger group of 'rescue' animals from Asia, including an adult male(Tuan) and the policy- unlike with the chimps- seems to always have been to encourage breeding from them, though to what end?

I believe recently they are also now taking in some rejected baby Orangutans from other European zoos to act as a 'nursery' for them. Does this indicate they are now acting within EEP guidelines or is it only a one-way situation?

02-09-2008

As far as am awhere, they are now participating in the EEP, however am unsure where the rescued orangutans come under. As I believe they are owned by the governments of the countries they were rescued from (well at least the ones from the S.E asian contries)

It will be interesting to see once all the orangutans are breeding whether animals go off to other collections.

Monkey World Orangutans.
03-09-2008

This is where it gets complicated. Presumably the babies which were supplied by the zoos are still under EEP 'ownership' while the Asian imports would be owned, as you said, by the countries they came from, while Amy and Gordon are (presumably) Monkeyworld's own. So three quite seperate sources of 'ownership' in the one colony.

Also I'm not clear where the ones they do breed could go in the future. Orangutans breed very freely in captivity and most zoos that keep them already have their own breeding colonies so there isn't great demand there. Progeny from the 'Asian' animals presumably wouldn't be allowed into zoos anyway, but can they realistically be returned to Asia for rerelease into the wild? What else is the aim in producing them?