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Brookfield Zoo - African elephants

Brookfield Zoo - African elephants
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  #16
Old 24-12-2009

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Originally Posted by BlackRhino View Post
Thats easy for you to say, but elephants are one of my all time favorite animals, and the fact that Detroit doesn't have elephants is a major reason why I wouldn't rate that zoo very high. I don't think climate should be a problem. I visited Cleveland Zoo yesterday and it was 20 degrees with the wind chill, yet the black rhinos were outside running around along with the zebras and giraffes. If these animals can go out in the freezing cold there is no reason why elephant can't. In fact when we still had elephants, our elephants would frequently go outside in the winter. One of our elephants, Moshi, loves playing in the snow.This completely disproves the climate argument.
So what you are saying is that, because they are my favourite animal, any zoo without red pandas would suffer a notable decline in visitor numbers. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that because you - one visitor - are fond of elephants, all zoos should keep them in what are clearly outdated exhibits. And, as CZjimmy has already pointed out, you seeing assorted hoofstock (none, if you look at it taxonimically, very closely related to elephants I might add) running about in the snow does not justify maintaining elephants outside all year round. Not only does this go against common zoological practices, it also does not take into account the difference in climate between Cleveland and Chicago.
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  #17
Old 24-12-2009

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Originally Posted by redpanda View Post
So what you are saying is that, because they are my favourite animal, any zoo without red pandas would suffer a notable decline in visitor numbers. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that because you - one visitor - are fond of elephants, all zoos should keep them in what are clearly outdated exhibits. And, as CZjimmy has already pointed out, you seeing assorted hoofstock (none, if you look at it taxonimically, very closely related to elephants I might add) running about in the snow does not justify maintaining elephants outside all year round. Not only does this go against common zoological practices, it also does not take into account the difference in climate between Cleveland and Chicago.
First of all, I never said that because they are my favorite animal a zoo without them would suffer a decline in visitors. Elephants are one of the most popular animals in zoos, and are definitely an animal many visitors expect to see. For me, personally, I rather visit a zoo that has elephants than one that doesn't.

Elephants are actually more cold hardy than the aforementioned hoofstock by the way.
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  #18
Old 24-12-2009

Christy the 29 yo female African elephant has died.

Brookfield elephant dies :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Metro & Tri-State
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  #19
Old 24-12-2009

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Originally Posted by BlackRhino View Post
First of all, I never said that because they are my favorite animal a zoo without them would suffer a decline in visitors. Elephants are one of the most popular animals in zoos, and are definitely an animal many visitors expect to see. For me, personally, I rather visit a zoo that has elephants than one that doesn't.

Elephants are actually more cold hardy than the aforementioned hoofstock by the way.
Well you seemed to think that the lack of elephants would affect your rating of a zoo and I was merely exaggerating this in my analogy (I believe your exact words were "a major blow"), but apologies if this was unclear. The message of my post is, however, the same - we must not let our personal preferences stop us from seeing what is before our eyes.

In answer to your second point, perhaps visitors do expect big animals at zoos (elehants, tigers, lions, giraffes, bears etc.), but considering most probably don't know the difference between them I hardly think visitor numbers would drop enough to have an impact if elephants left the collection, an opinion backed up by the recent success of the Detroit Zoo despite having sent away their pachyderms. Furthermore, in a more environmentally conscious world I'm sure that professionally-made graphics about the reasons behind, and benefits of, the elephants' departure would garner a lot of respect from the public who sees a zoo which is striving to improve animal welfare, rather than one which is just out to make money (and, of course, please you Mr Blackrhino).

And finally, although I never brought up the climate debate I still see that I am being drawn into it. Despite your assurances (could I have some sources to back those up please, I don't trust anyone who calls this exhibit adequate) that they love the cold-weather, it is still the case in the vast majority of zoos that elephants are locked up at night and in the winter. Whether correct practice or not, this is unlikely to change anytime soon so in colder areas, maintaining elephants is - to say the least - not ideal.
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  #20
Old 24-12-2009

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Originally Posted by redpanda View Post
Well you seemed to think that the lack of elephants would affect your rating of a zoo and I was merely exaggerating this in my analogy (I believe your exact words were "a major blow"), but apologies if this was unclear. The message of my post is, however, the same - we must not let our personal preferences stop us from seeing what is before our eyes.

In answer to your second point, perhaps visitors do expect big animals at zoos (elehants, tigers, lions, giraffes, bears etc.), but considering most probably don't know the difference between them I hardly think visitor numbers would drop enough to have an impact if elephants left the collection, an opinion backed up by the recent success of the Detroit Zoo despite having sent away their pachyderms. Furthermore, in a more environmentally conscious world I'm sure that professionally-made graphics about the reasons behind, and benefits of, the elephants' departure would garner a lot of respect from the public who sees a zoo which is striving to improve animal welfare, rather than one which is just out to make money (and, of course, please you Mr Blackrhino).

And finally, although I never brought up the climate debate I still see that I am being drawn into it. Despite your assurances (could I have some sources to back those up please, I don't trust anyone who calls this exhibit adequate) that they love the cold-weather, it is still the case in the vast majority of zoos that elephants are locked up at night and in the winter. Whether correct practice or not, this is unlikely to change anytime soon so in colder areas, maintaining elephants is - to say the least - not ideal.
To accommodate for winter nights Cleveland is building a heated night range. I don't know how you prove if an elephant likes the snow, but I would assume if they go out and roll around in it even when the door to a heated barn is left open, I would assume they like it.

Brookfield's exhibit is adequete, not ideal, but adequete. The elephants are being provided for and they have a lot of elements that encourage an active elephant such as the sand pile and mud wallow.
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  #21
Old 24-12-2009

Brookfield's director, Stuart Strahl, wants elephants at Brookfield. In fact, he wants eight including a male. That's their long-range plan. It's unfortunate Christy died but she had a congenital defect and would not have lived as long as she did had she not been at a zoo where she got excellent care.

Pittsburgh Zoo is an elephant breeding facility and their elephants are doing well.

I think elephant TB is more of an issue than the weather. Trunk washes don't always find it.
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  #22
Old 25-12-2009

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Originally Posted by BlackRhino View Post
To accommodate for winter nights Cleveland is building a heated night range. I don't know how you prove if an elephant likes the snow, but I would assume if they go out and roll around in it even when the door to a heated barn is left open, I would assume they like it.

Brookfield's exhibit is adequete, not ideal, but adequete. The elephants are being provided for and they have a lot of elements that encourage an active elephant such as the sand pile and mud wallow.
I never said that elephants don't like the snow (and if I did, ignore me) and I would imagine that some probably do. But, at the same time, some most likely don't and are, therefore, kept inside all winter. However, if you want to prove whether elephants like snow or not, then I suggest that you find an unbiased paper by a respected zoological scientist and post a link on this forum - although that would still be unlikely to change how they are treated for several decades (see protected contact).

And I still cannot comprehend how you see this exhibit as adequate. Even with all the enrichment in the world, an elephant should never be kept on a third of an acre; they may spend say an hour a day (being generous) using the sand pile and mud wallow, but what do they do for the rest of the time? I am not suggesting that we should make all elephant enclosures a million acres, but they surely need more space than this exhibit provides. And the fact that only a single female is kept simply makes the whole situation a great deal worse.
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  #23
Old 25-12-2009

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Originally Posted by redpanda View Post
I never said that elephants don't like the snow (and if I did, ignore me) and I would imagine that some probably do. But, at the same time, some most likely don't and are, therefore, kept inside all winter. However, if you want to prove whether elephants like snow or not, then I suggest that you find an unbiased paper by a respected zoological scientist and post a link on this forum - although that would still be unlikely to change how they are treated for several decades (see protected contact).

And I still cannot comprehend how you see this exhibit as adequate. Even with all the enrichment in the world, an elephant should never be kept on a third of an acre; they may spend say an hour a day (being generous) using the sand pile and mud wallow, but what do they do for the rest of the time? I am not suggesting that we should make all elephant enclosures a million acres, but they surely need more space than this exhibit provides. And the fact that only a single female is kept simply makes the whole situation a great deal worse.
@ redpanda, BlackRhino is an intern animal keeper at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo, an AZA certified zoo. She is knowledgeable about AZA standards for animal care and exhibit design. Not only is she knowledgeable about AZA standards, but in order to work in a zoo, she is required to have a degree in zoology or biology. In other words, she has the book smarts and the hands-on experience and she was speaking from her perspective as a keeper.

Brookfield Zoo has a long term plan for exhibiting and breeding elephants. They would need to start a capital campaign to realize their goals but they certainly have the space to expand. The AZA would look for another elephant to live with Joyce.
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  #24
Old 25-12-2009

@zoogeek: something is amiss here. BlackRhino is a he and he does not have a degree in anything as he is a young high school student who has visited maybe a dozen AZA zoos. He and I are friends on Facebook and also have corresponded many times via private messages here on ZooChat. I'm assuming that all of this information is correct, and BlackRhino is not who you believe he is.
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  #25
Old 25-12-2009

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Originally Posted by zoogeek View Post
but in order to work in a zoo, she is required to have a degree in zoology or biology.
Hahahahahahaha!
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  #26
Old 26-12-2009

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Originally Posted by snowleopard View Post
@zoogeek: something is amiss here. BlackRhino is a he and he does not have a degree in anything as he is a young high school student who has visited maybe a dozen AZA zoos. He and I are friends on Facebook and also have corresponded many times via private messages here on ZooChat. I'm assuming that all of this information is correct, and BlackRhino is not who you believe he is.
Thank you Scott
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  #27
Old 26-12-2009

My mistake then! I thought Blackrhino was an intern keeper at the CMZ? I must have you mixed up with another poster. My apologies! I must have been very tired from the same/old-same/old arguments.
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  #28
Old 02-08-2013

Has anybody heard anything about Brookfield's elephant plans? Do they still have elephant plans?
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  #29
Old 02-08-2013

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Originally Posted by DavidBrown View Post
Has anybody heard anything about Brookfield's elephant plans? Do they still have elephant plans?
I have a photo of a sign that tells something about it. All it says though is that they will bring elephants back and provide them with a larger home.
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  #30
Old 02-08-2013

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Originally Posted by DavidBrown View Post
Has anybody heard anything about Brookfield's elephant plans? Do they still have elephant plans?
Team tapir said that the zoo got rid ofthe plan to put te elephants back in the current elephant house. The only placethat I could see elephants move to is where the current camel, zebra and addax exhibits are.
 


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