Global Captive Orca Population

As I’ve said before, it is not Marineland’s fault that Stella was transferred to Kobe. It’s nobody’s fault but Granvista’s, because they own her and so have control over her fate. If they actually cared about orca welfare, they’d scrap their plans for an orca exhibit after the French transfer fell through because with the current population of captive orcas it’s not possible to move any to new parks without splitting up families. But they pressed on even after the French transfer fell through (not because Marineland backed out due to ethical concerns, but because animal welfare advocates and the French government stepped in) because the welfare of animals doesn’t matter to them. And for what it’s worth, word on the street (and on this website) was that the Marineland family was going to be split up between multiple Japanese facilities anyways. Animal welfare doesn’t matter to any of these marine parks, no matter the country. I desperately wish people would stop giving captive orca facilities the benefit of the doubt; time and time again, they’ve shown that profit is all they really care about and global welfare standards have barely improved. And Wikie and Keijo should just stay at ML for another year; the French govt. needs to use their power to bring in experts to run it so no more animals die and maybe file animal neglect charges.

 

No, it was the anti-caps/activists fault.
I do not know where in my posts you believe that I was giving Granvista the benefit of the doubt. I am not. We are all on pins and needles over here worrying which of Kamogawa's orcas might be joining Stella. No matter who it may be, it will be devastating to them and to those of us who have loved them for so long.

I do not listen to the "word on the street". I prefer reliable sources, ie: The shachi's mouth.

 

Doesn’t Ran have issues with Lovey so if she’s transferred it would be better for her?

 

Yes and not. I agree that a smaller enclosure with an adecuate design is better than a bigger one with less enrichment, but I also think there are limits. We all agree that is ok to keep birds in captivity, even when they never will be able to fly as much as they do on the wild. But I don´t think any of us would prefer to see a parrot on a one meter long cage instead than on a big aviary. And those orca and dolphin pools are inaceptable. Are new, but smaller than the ones built on the 70´s. The fact that the orcas at Nagoya prefer the small back pools, who knows, but I wouldn´t be surprised if it´s some kind of stereotypie.

 

Also, Marineland maybe can be bankrupt now (although I´d need to see how wealthy is Parques Reunidos as a whole), but that don´t happens from one day to another. And they have been getting a big benefit from those orcas, and the previous ones, during many years. They could have looked for better options than to sell them to a much worse facility on the other side of the world. As you have said, is all about profit.

 

I completely wholeheartedly agree.If it wasn’t for profit we would never see these animals in captivity even Marineland said in a documentary that they’re there for profit.

 

Where did "we all agree that it is ok to keep birds in captivity"?

They prefer the back pools because Earth and Stella lived in Kamogawa, which was home. The back pools are familiar and safe. To them, the show pool is the ocean, and the ocean is scary.

 

Although of course birds are a subject of discussion regarding certain practices or how to keep them, nobody, or very few people in the zoo lovers world, in this forum or in facebook groups, say "they don´t belong in captivity / is impossible to offer them good enough conditions", even regarding to species like parrots or corvids, while that´s an usual conversation when the subjects are cetaceans, and specially, orcas. So yes, I think we all agree that is ok to keep them in captivity.

 

An aviary is not the sky. A pool is not the ocean. Captivity is captivity. Most argue that ALL animals should be free and none should be in zoos or aquariums unless they are injured or endangered. How many of those birds were born in human care? How many will ever fly free?

I find it interesting that the majority of anti-caps want all of the orcas, dolphins and belugas freed, but for the first time, the other day, I overheard someone commenting that the seals and sea lions should be released. What about the penguins, the walruses, the clown fish? Really, what is the difference? The clownfish tank at Chimelong is boring and overcrowded, but oh well. Free Willy/Finding Nemo. Both Hollywood movies (starring fake animals),with the same narrative, but no one is demanding that the "Nemos" be set free. Are they considered "safer" in a tank because of their size, or simply because a documentary about tropical fish in captivity would guilt too many people with home aquariums.

 

Honestly, I don´t see the point of all this. Of course that people who is against captivity want all animals free, including Clownfish. But this is a forum where we all agree that captivity is ok so that´s the "we". And even among zoo lovers, I think we also agree that we must be critical, and zoos and aquariums must improve the conditions for their animals, not to built poor enclosures because "anyway, captivity is captivity" or send them to live in worse conditions than the actual ones. Also to think if is possible to provide decent conditions for each species, and that´s why cetaceans provoke discussions, even among us, that other animals don´t. And I think is not difficult to see that the needs of a 6 metres, highly intelligent and social predator are much more difficult to satisfy than the ones of a 6 cms fish that rarely go far from their host anemones.

 

Hi there, longtime reader, first time poster. I have two nagging questions regarding vintage SeaWorld trivia and I think only this forum has the answers

1. I've only recently learned that during the 1990s, SeaWorld kept Kayla and Winnie at the Ohio park year-round. I was shocked to discover that. I had always assumed that they were only there for the summer season and sent to San Antonio in the off-season. Do you have any idea why SW changed their policy re. Ohio? I looked at press articles wondering if maybe they kept the Ohio park open year-round in the 1990s but no. Kayla and Winnie must have been bored out of their minds during the off-season...

2. We all know that when Tilikum was sent to Orlando in 1992, SW instituted the "Tili rules" for trainers and that the enforcement of those rules over the years was a big question mark. But what about the other orcas involved in Keltie Byrne's death? Nootka died just a year after arriving in Orlando but Haida remained at SW San Antonio for eight years. Other than not going in the water with her, do you know if there were "Haida rules" at the park? i.e., only the most senior trainers could work with her, special precautions during medical procedures, etc? From what I know about Haida, she was a pretty dominant/domineering orca, so I'm very curious about how SW trainers interacted with her.

If you guys have any information I'd be super grateful!

 

It was only Katina and Kasatka that were moved out of Ohio during on/off seasons. Kayla and Winnie did indeed stay there for a few years. Why they did it that way, I don't know. Maybe compatibility issues for Winnie, and Kayla was used to keep her company? Just a guess.

I don't know about Tilikum, but 87-90 is when SW were firing all their training staff and vets after that big spate of attacks, so maybe they hadn't gotten their new protocols down yet?. I think the 'Tilli rules' became stricter after Daniel Dukes was killed.

I always found it concerning that LP don't seem to have stricter rules for Keto. In her book, Hazel McBride said that Keto was the first killer whale she ever got to touch, a month after she started working as a trainer at LP (her first job as a killer whale trainer). Yet SW trainers had to work at the park for something like 7 years before even being allowed to open a gate for Tilikum! This was after Alexis's death and when the LP whales were still owned by SW and under their rules too.

 

Well there were other orcas that were moved to Ohio for just the summer season though: Kahana (5 summers), Kilroy (4), Kenau (3), Samoa (2), Kona (1), Kandu V (1)... There's a good list here: SeaWorld Ohio

The only reason I can think of is that SW's orca population increased a lot during the 90s due to their breeding program taking off, so maybe they decided to keep some whales in Ohio year-round to leave more space at the other parks.

 

Welcome to Zoochat!

I'm fairly sure it was just for the simple reason that the other parks all were quite full numbers wise. This was from the mid 90's when the Seaworld breeding program was really kicking off. It also would've been far more easier for Kayla and Winnie to remain at Ohio; taking out the yearly transport. Individually, Winnie was a very sub-dominant whale and had a terrible time initially at Orlando, and even at San Antonio with Haida. She was the best candidate for Ohio, and she was joined by young Kayla who had lost her mother a few years earlier. Winnie played a crucial mothering to her.

Indeed there were similar rules with the other two girls. Whilst I'm not familiar with Haida, I do know Nootka rarely performed in shows and spent majority of her days in the back pools. Like Tili, she was deemed non waterwork upon her arrival. Nootka was a very moody whale, and so was unsuitable for shows anyhow. Her sole intention was to mainly fall pregnant, and so she spent most of her time with Tili. There were heavy restrictions working with her; much like with Tili. Only senior trainers could work with them, and there were obviously other precautions trainers had to take when working with Nootka. One rule I do know existed with Nootka, was that trainers weren't allowed to wear loose wetsuits around her and Tili. Seniors wanted to avoid every chance of them potentially being pulled in. In saying that, tactile contact was still allowed with both, only that it would be from on land and a spotter would be required for every interaction.

I know quite less about Haida, but she was indeed the dominant female at San Antonio. Unlike Nootka, she did perform in shows a lot and seemed to be a very cooperative whale in that aspect. She was often grouped with her son, Ky who was very, very close to her. The pair were almost inseparable. Katerina and Keet also spent a lot of time with them too. Haida was obviously no waterwork too, but from photos it does seem like she had a far more physical relationship with trainers than the likes of Tili and Nootka at Orlando. Again, it probably came down to management which varied at each park.

 

I think this was because they wanted to start a successful breeding program at Ohio like San Diego, San Antonio and Orlando I wonder why they never bought any males to live with them

 

It had definitely become a holding facility for excess animals by the end - the last year Sea World Aurora/Ohio was open, they moved Keet, Keto and Sumar in, they were essentially excess animals at that point as they weren't marketable as Baby Shamu's anymore, I'm not sure at what point Sea World started discussions with Loro Parque about offloading some of their animals (not sure how long it took to build orca ocean) but they were definitely becoming too successful in terms of breeding. I think they essentially had the theme park equivalent of a non compete agreement with another theme park which prevented them building the rollercoasters they have at the other three parks which contributed to its closure.

Winnie did spend a few years at Orlando prior to moving to Ohio, I'm not sure how she got on with the others there, she might have had issues with Katina or dominant whales in general, she did live with a lot of other whales in her life, they might have decided to move her to give her a break - Orlando had Katina, San Diego had Kasatka and San Antonio had Haida 2, Ohio lacked a long term pod. I think Kayla was moved as Kenau had just recently died and they wanted to pair her with Winnie, but that's just speculation on my part.

 

Thank you! Very interesting. I wonder how Nootka got along with the other whales during her short time in Orlando. Speaking of Orlando in the 1990s, do you know what was the deal between Kalina and Katina when Kalina returned in 1994? In David Kirby's book (I assume he got this from Jeffrey Ventre) he says that Kalina tried to usurp her own mother's power and to become the new dominant orca. Did that really happen? I find that dynamic very weird... It's also interesting to note that over the years, it looks like Kalina's personality changed a lot: she started as a rambunctious orca with dominating tendencies over both other orcas and trainers, but in her last years she seemed to become one of Orlando's most docile and submissive whales. From the SW animal profiles, we know that both Takara and Tilikum became aggressive with her (only time I recall Tilikum being the dominant whale), and of course there is recorded footage of Kayla attacking her in 2010; it's also believed that Kayla and Kalina were fighting during the Believe show before Dawn was killed.

Here is what John Jett said about Winnie's time in Orlando: "Winnie came from the Windsor Safari Park in England. She was pretty small compared to the other whales that we had, and she was a really subdominant animal – just got her butt kicked regularly by the other animals, especially Katina and Gudrun. Some of it was very harsh. But Winnie was such a sweet critter. We used to jump in the water and just basically love on her. She was so tolerant. And that was something that really made a number of impressions on me. One, that she was just a really cool critter. But two, watching her get chased around and beat up was really heartbreaking for me."

 

Winnie had a lower apatite during her time at Windsor Safari Park due to their water being kept at a higher temperature. When she was moved to SeaWorld in 1991, they kept their water at a much lower temperature and her apatite increased but her growth was stunted. That's why she was always a small whale. It may have also have been connected to the reason she never became pregnant.

 

I don't believe Nootka was grouped with any of the other whales during her short time at Orlando, besides Tili. Being a very dominant female, she would've surely clashed with Katina.

When Kalina returned from San Antonio, she initially didn't get along with her mother again. Indeed, she attempted to over throw her mother's rule but this didn't last that long. Interestingly the only other female to 'challenge' Katina, was Taima and unlike Kalina, she was actually successful to the point where both females seemed to share the dominant role come the late 2000's. Previously they had been rather incompatible due to that reason.

It's intriguing you bring up Kalina's personality change. As far as I know, it does seem she went 'off the rails' when on her Baby Shamu Tour, developing a very rambunctious personality most likely due to the lack of a mother influence (she was still very young at the time). Once she grew older, things began to change, although it was noted she still had an array of issues with pretty much all whales (besides Taima) up until her passing. Due to her submissive nature, it's no surprise she was constantly picked on by the other orcas (Tiki and Kayla). I was very surprised to hear Tili was dominant over her too. On reflection, Tili actually seemed to get on with most females (with the exception of Katina). I'm not sure why exactly Tili was dominant over Kalina, but it was certainly unusual.

 

I know this is off topic but; does anyone have any photos of lolita with the pilot whale she was aparrently kept with in the 80s and 90s?