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Paradoxurus

Cefn Yr Erw gibbon house

Cefn Yr Erw gibbon house
Paradoxurus, 12 Mar 2008
    • Panthera Puss
      Tea is good for Lemurs*, I believe. Whether it's better from bone china or a plastic bottle is unrecorded :)


      *American Journal of Primatology 61:101–110 (2003).
    • SMR
      Allie, welcome to ZooChat and thanks for what was under the circumstances, a brave first post.

      You'll have read that Cefn-yr-Erw is not everyone's favourite zoo/sanctuary, but in recent weeks the flames have been fanned by certain fanatical members and supporters of the sanctuary who have caused more harm than good.

      Hopefully you'll stick around as the level-headed information in your post may have gone some way to reverse that trend. The management at Cefn-yr-Erw could take a leaf out of your book.
    • johnstoni
      I do actually think that, regardless of who's photos they are (we only posted links, to publicly-displayed photosets on Flickr), discussing the fact that someone is in with an adult gibbon, or feeding maltesers to lemurs is not speculation. There are clearly photographs of those two things. However, it is really nice to see that person participating in this discussion forum and I value the perspective offered.
    • Ailie
      Hello and thanks for that, SMR.

      I can understand defensiveness from a staff/managerial point of view as the sanctuary is very close to their hearts and in some cases is even their home. Any criticism is going to feel personal and it’s difficult to rein in your emotions when you feel that you’re being slighted by people who are not seeing things from your point of view. I’m sympathetic to that, but constructive conversation is always the best way to deal with any perceived problems. I’m sure that both sides have good and valid points to make and rather than either side becoming aggressive, it's far better to remember that the welfare of the animals is what's important here. Human egos are very much a secondary concern!

      Sorry Johnstoni – I wasn’t trying to be antagonistic and I wasn’t very clear. My use of the word ‘speculation’ was related to speculating why there was someone in with an adult gibbon or why there would be feeding of snacks or drinks that could be seen as ‘inappropriate’ when someone could have just fired off an email to me and asked about it. But I of course appreciate that while this is what I’d have done, it’s not necessarily something that other people would do straight off the bat.

      I’m not being precious about the photos themselves – they’re freely available for all to see. And don’t I look great? Hahahaa! :)
      While I justifiably look like I just rolled out of bed and drove for an hour, I do look happy and can guarantee you that if I thought for a second that the animals weren’t happy, I wouldn’t have a smile on my face.

      I’m totally happy to talk about any of those photos and give you my view as someone who’s not part of the Cefn Yr Erw staff.
    • Clawedtoad
      Well said Ailie. I appreciate your comment and I don't have problems with your photos. If you read the other Cefn yr erw threads on zoochat, you might agree with me that the conversations have not been too constructive but rather irrationally defensive from some Cefn yr erw die hards (that's my observation anyway). It's unfortunate those threads became so heated that they were closed.

      I admire Cefn yr erw's spirit to rescue animals, but I'm not comfortable with the fact that they continue to rescue animals while not updating some of their enclosures- surely they could use funds generated from supporters to improve the quality of lives of their animals even more with better enclosures and enrichment? It reminds me of people who want to have loads of children without thinking about whether they can support them (love ain't enough unfortunately).

      Animal enclosures aside, I also find Cefn yr erw's PR unprofessional. Regarding Joey's death, Cefn yr erw argued that it was no one's business except theirs and those who adopted Joey and Tubman. I completely disagree with this attitude, as there are many people who knew Joey before he went to Cefn yr erw, and simply were concerned and wanted to know more about his death- this was in no way an attack on the sanctuary. On their website about Joey, they stated, "Our distress is being made much worse by an element of what can only be described as thugs and bullies, making threats and pouring out a torrent of verbal abuse against Jan & Graham and the Sanctuary Staff."

      Thugs? Bullies? A torrent of verbal abuse against Jan & Graham and the staff? Are they serious?! They are even throwing in "libel" here! In the end, Cefn yr erw could do whatever they want, as they have plenty of people who will think their sanctuary and attitudes are acceptable. But they definitely aren't my cup of tea, as I can't help to have higher standards for animal husbandry. I visited the Cefn yr erw threads here because I wanted to find out if others might share my concerns of Cefn yr erw, and I'm glad that there are many level headed people in zoochat who can make objective and sometimes funny comments. It would be nice if all exchanges were constructive.
    • Bele
      History of Vo the Lar Gibbon

      I found some information on Vo , the Lar Gibbon at Cefn-yr-Erw , in a 1991 UK Gibbon Studbook which might be of interest .

      He arrived in Manchester Belle Vue in 1970 and is said to have been born in 1969 - the studbook does not state whether this was in the wild or another zoo . In January 1976 he moved to the Welsh Mountain Zoo , Colwyn Bay and to Twycross Zoo in September 1979 before arriving at Southport in January 1983 .

      At Southport he was paired with female Lar gibbon Missey and Lar x Pileated Gibbon female Yoko , born 1975 , and produced young with both . I do not know if the hybrid Gibbon at Cefn-yr Erw is Yoko or her daughter Yoyok , born 1988 . I remember the group of three gibbons at Southport during visits in the 1980's . On a later visit they had been moved and there were quite a few more offspring , not certain if these were all from Vo and Missey .

      On the closure of Southport all the gibbons , including a small baby being hand-reared , were transferred to Cefn-yr-Erw .

      After previous experience , I am making no further comments about Cefn-yr-Erw , but have followed the posts and am pleased to find the calm of sensible discussion on this particular thread .
    • johnstoni
      Right - sorry, that was my bad for being defensive about a word you clearly weren't wielding with any bad intention.

      I guess I would feel defensive if someone I didn't know emailed me out of the blue to ask why I was doing something in some photos I had posted online. I kind of feel like, although I love your diplomacy (it is much-needed on here), that its not my business to ask someone to justify an experience that they valued enough to share photos of.

      I am coming at it I suppose from the perspective of an ex-keeper, as in discussing what we know and being careful not to make assumptions about what we don't ie enclosure size, furnishings, evidence of interaction etc, as opposed to husbandry techniques, level of dedication of the staff, and so on, which we would have no right to make statments about.
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    Wales Ape & Monkey Sanctuary
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