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ThylacineAlive

Wild-Type Budgerigar

Wild-Type Budgerigar
ThylacineAlive, 10 Jan 2019
    • BushBudgie
      @TeaLovingDave
      Well, we have a very clever one at the start. ;)
      In many respects you are wrong. Of course, Prague has animals from the Cologne line. Because Cologne sent animals to Plzen and Plzen then which to Prague = Cologne line :eek:oo ;)
      I know many people who have always tried to get animals from Cologne and have also offered a lot of money. Several employees from Cologne have confirmed that the breeding was very difficult and about 10 years ago normal budgies were crossed. At the Prague Zoo, I was also confirmed that the current stock at Cologne Zoo is no longer clean.
      And a little thought game: even if the Zoo Köln Budgies has handed over to a private keeper (and then missed VERY much money, because I know some people who have offered several thousand euros) you really think that this breeder has bred the parakeets purely and then did not sell it to the not a few people who offered an enormous amount of money. , but to a zoo? We are talking about the German breeders, who mostly swear by the prince line, a line that is far too big and not pure (the origin breeder in Holland only started to sort out the birds of color 40 years ago). You mean these breeders, who have founded their own species conservation organization on the basis of such an obvious and beautifully phenotypically recognizable line?
      It should be noted that the construction of a line of a few import birds is very difficult.
      But let's be good ;) people always believe only what they want to believe.
    • BushBudgie
      By the way: Take a look at the spots and body shape of the animals in Hamerton and compare them with wildlife shots from Australia. The spots of the wild form are enormously smaller and the bird itself looks much more dainty. I was able to see him live in Australia last year.
    • ThylacineAlive
      @BushBudgie If you've had all this prior knowledge and experience, how come it only comes out after somebody offers actual evidence contrary to what you said before? And if you already had all this information about the movement of these birds and their lack of purity, how come you started this conversation thinking they were wild-type and wanted to know the movement of these birds? I'm sorry to have such a lack of faith for your country's private breeders, despite some of them being some of the most experienced in keeping and breeding animals within their specialty.

      Having just looked at a number of shots of wild birds, I can't say I notice much of any difference to these birds, but as you say, "people always believe only what they want to believe."

      ~Thylo
    • BushBudgie
      @ThylacineAlive
      Nice to stay on the subject, my friend. In Germany there are excellent breeders and specialists, yes - but not for budgies.
      There is nothing more to discuss with you. There is a lack of years of knowledge about this species. All my Australian friends see the difference. I wish you a nice weekend ;)
    • TeaLovingDave
      @BushBudgie

      In many respects you are wrong. Of course, Prague has animals from the Cologne line. Because Cologne sent animals to Plzen and Plzen then which to Prague = Cologne line

      I repeat - ZIMS explicitly states that the animals currently at Prague came from Melbourne Zoo in 2020 :p not that it would matter if they *also* had stock from the Cologne-line, given the fact that as noted ZIMS also refutes your claims on purity. It's funny that you started out insisting that ZIMS proved you were right, and then the moment someone picks you up on this you start relying on "some guy told me" type statements which cannot be refuted as readily. Moreover, given the fact you indicated you had no knowledge about the provenance of these animals a mere fortnight ago, you seem to have spoken to a lot of people about the matter in a very short period of time ;)

      "An employee of the Cologne Zoo told me yesterday that in Zims it says that the animals from Bristol come from private. So not from a zoo."

      "I know many people who have always tried to get animals from Cologne "

      " Several employees from Cologne have confirmed that the breeding was very difficult"

      " At the Prague Zoo, I was also confirmed that the current stock at Cologne Zoo is no longer clean"


      I somehow doubt you have been to both Prague and Cologne since you waded into this thread.....

      As for your "thought game" - my post upthread already renders this moot, as I explicitly noted that per my ZIMS source the Hamerton animals are listed as having been born at Cologne. So the activities of the private keeper through whose hands they passed are irrelevant.

      "Take a look at the spots and body shape of the animals in Hamerton and compare them with wildlife shots from Australia. The spots of the wild form are enormously smaller and the bird itself looks much more dainty. "

      Okay then.... :p here's a photo taken in Alice Springs:

      [​IMG]

      And here's the shot above, reposted for easy comparison:

      [​IMG]

      Can't really see all that much difference - especially not the "enormously smaller" spots and "much more dainty" appearance.

      "people always believe only what they want to believe."

      As you seem to be confirming yourself :p
    • TeaLovingDave
      @BushBudgie

      "There is a lack of years of knowledge about this species. All my Australian friends see the difference. "


      So there is a lack of years of knowledge about the species in Germany, but you are the one and only exception? :p I also note you are now claiming to have consulted "all your Australian friends" on the purity of the birds in this photograph..... did you manage that in the last hour or two?

      The photo I just posted from Alice Springs was posted by an Australian member, incidentally - so I rather suspect they would be able to identify the species and the location they took the photograph accurately!
    • BushBudgie
      Who said that two weeks ago I had no knowledge? If you want to know something, you should always pretend to be ignorant, so as not to influence people with the knowledge available. But sorry that you don't know such simple psychological lyrical procedures ;p

      And yes, I have spoken to the relevant staff in both Cologne and Prague.

      To end this annoying discussion, not least because your reasoning and quotes are more likely to be childlike. Not least because the characteristics of species can be compared not only by means of two comparison images. There are always phenotypic exceptions, of course you look for the appropriate images for your reasoning ;)
      That is why we come back to a factual level:

      In Zims it says that the Bristol stock comes from private. It does not say, however, that this private person got birds from Cologne. Or what do you find at Zims?
      I would be happy if there were some from Cologne. But Cologne itself did not even manage to maintain this line, because the breeding went very badly and that is a fact. The curator told me and other staff who took care of it on site. Why should breeding be better with a private keeper? This is despite the fact that Cologne had the broader starting point
    • Andrew Swales
      @TeaLovingDave

      The tone of some of this conversation seems to have taken a distinct direction!
      I would make a couple of points:
      The budgies at Hamerton (ex-Bristol) are breeding very well and remain 'true to type'.
      Given that this spp domesticates so quickly and the stock must now be multiple generations away from the wild, there is nothing to say that even IF they are now slightly larger with minimally different spots, that the original stock was not OK, and still is.
      There is every possibility that private breeders had better success with the stock, than zoos did. This has happened many times before, with many spp.
      Species can break through a management-difficulty bottleneck, by unintentional generational selection without having to be 'hybridised'. Our Corsac Foxes are a case in point.
      Australian friends have seen the stock at Hamerton and were quite happy with it. Wild Budgerigars are not often kept in Australian zoos, and there is no reason to suspect that birds in private hands are 100% pure either.
      Even if stock were available for export, the costs and logistics of importation rule this out - for us anyway...
    • ThylacineAlive
      @BushBudgie I'm not going to continue to argue with you, as you continue to change what knowledge you have, who you've spoken to, and which sources of information are correct with every post. I don't mind debates, but once the goalposts start shifted with every new argument I find it's time to tap out. All I will respond to is the following:
      Okay? This only means you're acknowledging that there are pure wild populations which phenotypically match the captive stock photographed above so... Unless you're now implying all the wild populations that don't prove you right (yet to find photos of any anywhere mind you) are all impure as well :p
      As noted above already, ZIMS completely disagrees with everything you're claiming here, and your imaginary conversation with people you only suddenly had spoken to after being proved wrong don't change that. The very same people you claimed to have spoken to will be those who updated ZIMS with the information provided by @TeaLovingDave, and unlike your conversations there's actual evidence for that.

      Now have a good morning/evening/night sir/madam. I hope you feel free to contribute to the wider forum and not just continuously try to argue on this single photo once every other week or so as you've done for over a month now..

      Thank you @Andrew Swales for your contribution to the discussion. I figured you'd obviously be able to provide the truth one way or the other but didn't want to bother you with such a trivial "debate". I don't think it's uncommon for captive populations to form slight phenotypical differences from wild stock over time despite purity, simply due to their new environments, certain unexpressed traits being unknowingly bred for, and of course potential inbreeding depression (certainly possible/probable given Cologne's founding population was only 4.8 birds!). More recently imported Meerkat stock--which is something I believe you also have?--tend to be much darker in coloration and a bit more slender in appearance, but that in no way implies the older populations are at all hybridized now does it.

      ~Thylo
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  • Category:
    Hamerton Zoo Park
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    10 Jan 2019
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