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TZFan

Lion cub

I love the way their manes are starting to come in. I miss Fintan rocking the mohawk and I cant wait for the boys to start rocking theirs.

Lion cub
TZFan, 3 Aug 2016
    • TZFan
      I love the way their manes are starting to come in. I miss Fintan rocking the mohawk and I cant wait for the boys to start rocking theirs.
    • cypher
      I wonder if the zoo has found new homes for them?
    • TZFan
      If they don't already I suspect they are looking hard right now. Toronto has two prides already so separating the boys from Fintan once he wants them gone will be hard. Most prides in North America see the boys separated from dad between a year and 18 months or they pull dad and the boys from the females. Three groupings would probably be pushing it on space.

      I think we will see the boys leaving in the late fall or over the winter, probably for an overseas zoo.
    • cypher
      When I last asked about that, the Keeper said he would hate to see the boys fixed like the Tawnys were.

      Assuming they do find home for the boys, I wonder if they'll allow breeding again?
    • TZFan
      I really don't think fixing the boys will be an issue. Jerroh and Lindy were genetically worthless. They carried the gene mutation so the SSP didn't want them. They came from an unpedigreed father so again the SSP didn't want them. And because they were not from two parents carrying the white lion gene mutation anyone looking to breed white lions didn't want them. At the end of the day the zoo was beyond irresponsible breeding Rowdy and Nokonda, not once but twice! They got darn lucky they were able to place Simba at Parc Safari.

      The boys though have a better chance of finding a home. They are white lions and carry the genes necessary to produce more white lions. While that means the vast majority of AZA zoos are out, some might consider the boys. And a Canadian placement might be hard with full prides at 4 Canadian zoos and Jungle Cat World with single male Gopa plus four litters being born in the last two years. I think most other zoos have their own lions and would prefer to stick with normal lions. There is definitely hope overseas. Asian zoos love white anything. The boys could be very much in demand in Japan or China which would open up a trading opportunity. There are some white lion prides in Europe as well so that's an option too.

      Now will Fintan and Makali be allowed to breed again? I think that answer depends a lot on how hard it is to find homes for the boys. If its very hard then probably not. If its relatively easy then I think its almost a guarantee they will breed again. Let's be honest lion cubs are cash cows... white lion cubs are even bigger cash cows. Do the keepers want to breed again? For the vast majority the answer would be no but they didn't want white lions in the first place. I agree with the keepers that they should not be bred again but neither the keeper or myself are in charge of those decisions. If the bosses want more cubs the lions will be bred again.
    • cypher
      All great points, TZFan. Nicely summed up.

      Now here's another thing I'm wondering, will the zoo, outright sell the cubs, relinquishing ownership of them, or will it be a loan process like we usually see within the AZA? Or does that also depend on where the cubs are going?

      Let me give an example of what I mean. Let's say the cubs find a home in Asian. Will the zoo negotiate a sell/trade and that zoo now owns them, or will the Toronto Zoo still have ownership of the cubs, and possible offspring ownership.

      It's just like the situation with Ena, the Snow Leopard. Does the Toronto Zoo own her now, or does the zoo she came from still have ownership and we're just borrowing her for breeding.

      Also, I understand that every situation may be different, but is there a standard practice when working deals out with oversea zoo not part of the AZA? Or is every situation different depending on the deal made by the zoos.
    • TZFan
      What I have seen from studbooks if an animal goes overseas it is customary for the zoo to give up ownership. Now what I cannot say for certain is if they are sold, given or traded. There was a period of time that Toronto sent quite a few... I want to say Lion Tailed Macaques but it might have been another monkey... to China. Around that same year Toronto received an influx of another animal... I don't recall what. Likely it was a straight up trade. They will likely always call it a breeding loan but the odds of the animal ever coming home to Canada is virtually nonexistent.

      I believe Toronto owns Ena. A male snow leopard from Winnipeg went to Tama Zoo. Looks like a straight up trade. Now what Im not certain about is ownership of the male. But it's possible Toronto traded ownership of another animal to Winnipeg, got the male and then traded him to Tama. It's not like Winnipeg isn't home to two Toronto born and owned polar bears.

      Ownership is a funny thing. While a zoo does own an animal SSP's tend to take precedence. Unless the owning zoo has a problem with an animal being transferred elsewhere (AKA Toronto's former problem) they just let the SSP decide.

      As for international swaps in general I think it falls in two camps. There are some international SSP's. Off the top of my head koalas. All Koalas not in Australia are managed by the same SSP. There are times too when an SSP might need new stock so they look for trades and then assign the animal to a new home in North America. But there are other times where the zoo sets up the trade itself and then just informs the SSP (if there is even one). I believe Ena and new pygmy hippo Kindia are part of such trades. I think in both cases Toronto was having difficulty finding mates in North America (not that pygmy hippo Harvey being unrepresented should have had trouble finding a suitable mate) so they looked elsewhere. I'm not 100% on those but both were listed as prearranged transfers. That's at least my understanding of international trades.
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