The Tierpark might be forgiven for wondering what use being seeded is, when it comes up against Rotterdam in the first round with Leipzig potentially waiting for them if they get through. But nevertheless, I've been looking forward to this one. The category? Large carnivores. Herr Alfred Brehm, you're up. ZooChat Cup In summary, the rules of the game are as follows: - You may choose whatever criteria you like to decide how to vote, as long as it only relates to the category above. - You can use whatever resources you like to inform your vote, including Zoolex, Zootierliste, the ZooChat gallery, trip reviews, zoo maps, books and wherever else. You don't have to have visited both zoos to vote. - Votes are public and can be changed at any time before the poll closes. - The aim of the game is to provoke debate. Post explaining why you voted the way you did, and why others should join you. - Voting closes in four days - The one thing you can't do is vote based on anything other than the relevant category.
This one is an easy choice for me, at least: Berlin Tierpark for sure. It just meets my personal large carnivore needs in a way that Rotterdam does not.
In terms of conversation, this is the dream. But in terms of the Tierpark having a good day..... Berlin's collection of carnivores was extraordinary, and is still probably one of the best in Europe. And that collection is tilted towards the larger end of things. There are plenty of good enclosures as well: all the canid ones for example (I think?) and the polar and spectacled bears. A lot of the enclosures feel quite middle of the road: the hyaenas, cheetahs and snow leopards. To be honest I think these benefit from comparison with what is coming next, as does the American black bear's exhibit. They really aren't special (This also holds for the large enclosures at the ends of the AB House). I first saw the Alfred Brehm House at the end of its heyday: two long rows of indoor and outdoor exhibits, all small, square cages and all holding different species. It's a topic that splits zoochatters, but I was completely disgusted by it. When I went back two years later, I had a lot more zoos, good and bad, under my belt and so my opinion was always going to have mellowed. Furthermore, the AB House is currently undergoing redevelopment, so most species have been moved out and most will not be returning. But, it beggars belief that following yet another set of works, when I next visit Berlin I understand I will still be greeted by some (not all) of the same old cages! In a different context a zoo might get away with putting a clouded leopard in one of these (a wooded, quiet context with fewer visitors, perhaps not in a major world capital). The cages have traditionally lacked vegetation, and given the fact they will be returning it's fair to assume that so will their bare nature. It's hard to imagine they will be 'good'. The Alfred Brehm House might not be quite as bad as some make it out to be. But it is so far from being good. I can't think of a single other example where the contrast between a great zoo and a terrible exhibit is so strong. Berlin should do better, but unfortunately multiple chances, including the current one, seem to indicate that it has no desire to. I will wait for someone to write about Rotterdam before I cast my vote, but it'll be a cold day in Alfred Brehm's namesake before I put an X next to the first entry on this ballot. Oh, and the sun bear cages suck!
Is anyone able to provide a summary of what changes there have been over the last few years and what changes are planned for the ABH in terms of the large carnivore holdings?
Both: Spotted hyena; Sumatran tiger; maned wolf; polar bear; northern raccoon; Nepalese red panda Berlin Tierpark Dongola small-spotted and European genets; common palm and Malayan civets; Malayan binturong Arabian striped hyena; eastern aardwolf European wild, Palawan leopard and Siberian Pallas’ cats; Central Asian lynx; bobcat; Sudan cheetah; Central American margay; Indochinese clouded leopard; snow leopard; Siberian, Sumatran and Malayan tigers; Javan leopard Chinese dhole; South African bat-eared fox Spectacled and American black bears Central African ratel Rotterdam Fishing cat; Amur leopard; Asiatic lion Arctic and swift* foxes Californian sea lion Berlin wins this one for number and variety. Rotterdam has a pinniped and has swift foxes. I wonder if there should be a criterion, such as weight, for which carnivores are large and which are small. Alternatively just include all members of the Carnivora and if there are any captive creodonts, please let me know.
As I've said before, I do not want to define a lower bound on size for this category, because I don't think it makes sense. You can't do it on taxonomy, because then you're left either including fennec foxes or excluding wolves. You can't do it on body mass, either, or you might end up either including binturongs or excluding clouded leopards. Use your judgement, but also ask yourself: would any zoo ever think of advertising its fishing cats and genets as 'large carnivores'?
Hmmmm. I suspect that anything that is said about the Alfred Brehm will not sway anyone's perspective. I love it (or loved it - I've not yet seen the on-going changes); others loathe it equally strongly, Their views are wholly valid (but obviously I don't agree with them). This debate is a long-standing one.... So, shunt that to one side, and consider instead the rest of the Tierpark's large carnivore enclosures (as well as the collection). The bear grottos are large, possibly not hugely exciting, but in the greats scheme of things not at all bad. And extra points for having a shop windows exhibit. The Sun Bear House is pretty horrible - but I wonder if it's any more horrible than most zoos' (unseen) inner dens. The external cage is small, but just about (at a pinch) adequate. The Hyena exhibits are wonderful - for the collection, and for the viewing. Simple, but wonderful. Dholes, Wolves, Bobcat - that whole area is pretty fine. The northern animals area (I'm never quite sure what to call this - the bit on the hill) has wholly decent Lynx and Wild Cat exhibits. Near, but not of the Brehm house - I think the Cheetah and Snow Leopard exhibits are pretty good. Not world class, but better than most. And the nearby Maned Wolf enclosures are good too. Rotterdam is obviously a great zoo, but, I always feel, not as great as it should be. Here, in this category: Tigers are displayed pretty well. Leopard enclosure seems to be the least satisfactory part of the otherwise very good Asian area (a bit too small, possibly although I appreciate the irony of posting this out in a match-up with Berlin). Polar Bears - quite nicely done, but as a modern exhibit it neither has the flashiness of many American offerings, nor the sheer size and ambition of the HWP or the Yorkshire WP, and instead falls somewhere between the two. Am I right in thinking that the Lion exhibit is being converted for Hyenas? I've not seen this - but always quite liked the old Carnivore House (decidedly old-school as it was). All-in-all - a clear and easy win for the Berlin Tierpark.
I feel that a re-hash of Moscow v Hannover is happening here. Hear me out. Admittedly I haven’t been to the Tierpark yet (September can’t come soon enough). Yes the Tierpark is big. Yes it has the species list. Yes there are some aspects that are better than others. However, as with Moscow v Hannover, I would much prefer a zoo that does ALL (if not, next to all) of their species justice, rather than keeping a fair few carnivores in relatively outdated accommodation. Yes the Tierpark is making changes at long last (especially with regards to the Alfred Brehm house), but Blijdorp has already made changes and is continuing to do so to this day. Inevitably a similar situation will happen like with Moscow, and Berlin TP will win. But, out of respect for current welfare and for the fact that they have a few carnivores, but all done right, I am voting for Blijdorp.
I'm amazed the Tierpark is doing so well. Even for fans of the Brehm House (who I will never understand), many outdoor cages are cordoned off and derelict. On my visit last autumn, most of the indoor areas were vacant. Today's collection is depauperate, the welfare standards are appalling (which the zoo fortunately recognises), and it's noisy, crowded, and ugly for visitors. Yes, it's big. At one time, it was even great. But it was never good and it certainly isn't now. The difference between this match and Hannover vs. Moscow is that Hannover barely has an ectotherm collection. Blijdorp does have a solid roster of large carnivores, all in good to great housing (and sorry Sooty, but the polar bear viewing is spectacular). If Hannover can almost unseat Moscow, Rotterdam deserves to wallop the Tierpark.
I whole-heartedly agree with @Giant Panda for everything but one point: I don't think the building is ugly. However, it shouldn't be used for ANY large cats, with Sumatran tigers getting the worst part of the deal. Equally horrible is the sun bear enclosure. Blijdorp surely has to win this, even if purely based on the fact that nothing there is horrible whereas there as horrible things in Berlin?
I changed my vote to Rotterdam because of what people have said. However, it is a great thing that Tierpark is changing.
Even though it would be a shame to lose Tierpark Berlin in the first round, large carnivores are unfortunately not TP's strong point at all; and I cannot vote for them, especially when compared to Rotterdam which hasn't got anything as horrible as some of the AB-Haus exhibit or the sun bear "exhibit" (as far as I know). Unless the Alfred-Brehm Haus gets renovated (which it is getting but still isn't completely as of today) or the TP gets rid of or finds a better exhibit for their sun bears, it has to be Rotterdam.
Your logic in this paragraph rather comes across as presenting a Catch-22 - to wit, that if the ABH were not undergoing redevelopment this would be a reason to vote against Tierpark because of the standards of the house, but because it is currently depopulated and undergoing redevelopment this is *also* a reason to vote against the Tierpark I would argue the exhibits for the tigers and lions in the ABH were among the best in the house, actually - at least when I visited! I would also argue that the sun bear exhibit elsewhere in the Tierpark is worse than *anything* in the ABH either now or at the time of my visit. --- I wasn't going to get into this argument, as I've spent many hours going back and forth about my feelings towards Tierpark and the ABH and I don't feel like going over old ground, but having replied to the above remarks I might as well post a brief summary of why I personally *have* voted for Tierpark Berlin this time round, which I wrote when discussing the matter with @ShonenJake13 earlier today and is edited only for clarity (hence being a little choppy). Rotterdam is great, has a fantastic P-bear exhibit. The other large carnivore exhibits are good but middle-of-road with exception of leopard which was completely unmemorable - literally cannot bring it to mind without checking my photos and I saw it less than 2 months ago On other hand, TP has the ABH which i genuinely think is nowhere as bad as people think and a lot of the bad bits are being redeveloped. The lion and tiger exhibits in there were pretty good actually; the outdoor exhibits were middle-of-road but indoor were better than vast majority of indoor exhibits for those species you are liable to see elsewhere, as even GREAT outdoor exhibits tend to just have bare indoors, so large mock-rock platforms on several levels separated only by a moat (which is what tigers/lions at TP had for indoors when i went) is a nice change. Who knows whether this will be case when ABH is redeveloped of course. The sunbear exhibit at TP is HORRIFIC - but because it is tucked away people tend to direct less vitriol at that than they do towards the ABH. As for the other large carnivore exhibits at TP - most are good to middle-of-road. Cheetah one, lynx one, hyena ones and dhole one are very good (though admittedly not as great as the polar bear one at Rotterdam).... so it basically comes down to the fact that even though TP Berlin has two exhibits worse than any at Rotterdam it also has dozens which are equal to or in some cases better than ones at Rotterdam. To put it another way, and with Rotterdam in bold and Tierpark in italics..... EXCELLENT: Polar Bear VERY GOOD: Tiger, Striped Hyena, Lynx, Aardwolf, ABH Cheetah, Spotted Hyena, Dhole GOOD: Lion, Bobcat, Iberian Wolf, Polar Bear, ABH Snow Leopard, Spectacled Bear MIDDLING: Leopard, Sealion, Spotted Hyena, American Black Bear, ABH Lion and Tiger BAD: Rest of ABH AWFUL: Sun Bear Rotterdam is more consistent, but this is one case where a larger collection does swing it for me.
@ Sooty mangabey the old carnivore house in Blijdorp is currently remodeled to house Gelada and Barbary sheep. The lions moved to a new enclosure where the okapi were before. Hyena are opposite the giraffes now. I am flabbergasted Berlin is doing so well, yes it has the species, but bears and cats aren't housed well at all... The Sun bear enclosures are just appalling and also way too small and borig outdoors. Fortunately they don't keep 4-5 sun bears anymore, so no shifts to leave the indoor cages. The Black bear enclosure is also too small. The Polar and Spectacled bear enclosures are fine. But these consist of one enclosure each and are thus horribly outdated. Any modern bear enclosure has multiple spacious outdoor enclosures, like the Polar bears in Rotterdam.So guess what happens when there are cubs in Berlin.... All big cat enclosures in Rotterdam are fine and calling the leopard enclosure on the small side and loving the AB house is really the world upside down.... This should be an easy win for Rotterdam imo.
This is absolutely stunning to me. I happen to like (I will not go as far as to say love) the ABH in its old version. Much of it has to do with the way the complex was handled and utilized by the staff. The house itself for all I care may not be changed any more but the outside enclosures should. That does not affect the house which I would like to keep as is. So I am with Sooty on that one. The sun bear house is not a bear house, it is a great apes house of the late 70s. And as such it is in fact much better than much of indoor housing I have seen throughout zoos in Europe of which I have personally seen approx. 90%. You just do not get to see those 'enclosures' on a regular basis. And by the way, even Burgers back housing is worse than Berlin TP. The problem again is the outdoors of which I don't necessarily mind the 'cage' itself but the size and the height. Triple the width and length (which is there) and triple the height (which should be a no brainer) and put some structure in it and you have maybe an ugly 'cage' still, but an enclosure that would fit the needs of sun bears way more than fancy spacey outdoors with non durable climbing structures that on top of that do not supply what is needed most - semi shade. That being said, the complex is totally outdated and should not be any more. The enclosures of the spectacled bears and polar bears I personally consider to be subpar for one reason only: they cannot be separated, and if the zoo is breeding, this works to the detriment of the male bear. Unless you have a decent holding enclosure for the male bears in a breeding situation - it is a no go for me. Same with the black bears ( I have been inside the outdoors enclosure of the fishbowl enclosure and the street noises do not penetrate to the inside). The polar bear enclosure in Rotterdam is actually the dumbest thing ever built for money they spent, especially given the money that went in the glassed pool-indoor thing in relation to what could have been built for that money outside instead. But they have an option to house a male bear separate from a female with cubs. The hyenas in Rotterdam have a fine enclosure. The tiger enclosure is great. On numbers Berlin TP wins. I have lived in Berlin, the TP is most likely the zoo I like best (and yes in my book the Tierpark totally wins against the Zoo). I admire the devotion and stamina that the care takers in Berlin do their jobs with and their professional knowledge. I am sad and mad at the same time that this gem most likely will end up in shambles, because it never has and never will get the financing that it would need to out-do its counterpart in the western part of Berlin. And all that was great and should be kept (the SUN BEAR LEGACY for crying out loud - I am a single issue voter on that and they are ending sun bears in Berlin) will disappear, all for the TP being just another run of the mill zoo; a geo zoo theme park thing for that matter. Rotterdam was in that very same situation (I believe) and they turned it around. Everything they did came out better than before, they even got Pierre Gay in for their Okapis... So, here was my eulogy for the TP and my vote goes to Rotterdam. I cannot believe I am actually voting against my favorite zoo, but what is was then and is now, will not last. Even if they have a surviving polar bear cub next year.
@TLD: I was trying to swing those who like the Brehm House. Without the collection, it doesn't have a leg to stand on. And the many enclosures for leopards and their ilk are just as bad as the sun bear exhibit, if not worse. Incidentally, writing these off as just two exhibits, given how many "exhibits" the ABH includes, is a misrepresentation, I think. People focus on it because scores of cats have suffered there.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.... personally I would argue that this: ...cannot be called worse than this: Yeah, you'll note that in my point-by-point breakdown I split the ABH into a few categories.... as I don't actually know which outside and indoor exhibits are still present and occupied I couldn't split it further. It's worth noting that although outside the scope of this particular discussion, the exhibit for Palawan Leopard Cat at Tierpark Berlin is the best I have seen for the species, being significantly better than those at Prague or Plzen.
