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ZooChat Cup S2 Grand Finals: Bronx vs San Diego Zoo

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by pachyderm pro, 11 Jul 2018.

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Primates and Herps

Poll closed 15 Jul 2018.
  1. Bronx

    64.3%
  2. San Diego Zoo

    35.7%
  1. pachyderm pro

    pachyderm pro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    We are going out with bang. Two of Americas top zoos clash once and for all. They have beaten 30 other zoos to reach this point, but which one will come out on top? This all comes at a perfect time, as a certain thread created by a certain zoochatter from Connecticut has generated quite the debate and discussion between these two places Two major strengths for both places, primates and herps will be the deciding factor of which zoo will become the victor! Congo Gorilla Forest, Jungle World and Baboon Reserve, vs Monkey Trails, Absolutely Apes and Gorilla Tropics. Reptile Walk vs World of Replies.

    The best of luck to both competitors, may the best zoo win!
     
  2. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Ooh, nice. Bronx has two truly exceptional primate exhibits, but they aren’t enough to overcome San Diego’s immense strength in reptiles. Bronx is Federer to San Diego’s Nadal here, and this match is being played on clay.
     
  3. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I have a feeling it won't make much of a difference but I figured I'd repost the relevant sections of my long climate comparison post found here:

    "... For primates, SDZ may be considered one of the best zoos around, but both zoos keep the same number of species. The difference is that Bronx keeps mostly smaller species from Strepsirrhini and Platyrrhini that can be exhibited very well indoors, with most of their lemur enclosures being larger and taller than many outdoor enclosures. For example, the zoo’s spiny forest lemur habitat is about 3,200sqft in size with both of SDZ’s outdoor lemur enclosures being similar in size at ~3,500sqft and ~2,700sqft respectively, and the sifaka enclosure at Bronx being around 30-35ft in height. Several of the New World Monkeys have sizeable seasonal outdoor habitats as well. The all-indoor gibbon, langur, and guenon enclosures are also pretty huge and very tall and all allow for natural light to be filtered through the ceilings. As discussed before the zoo’s gorilla habitat is arguably the best in the world and their indoor accommodations are better than most zoos’ at 6,000sqft in size and much of it being two stories tall. The seldom talked about Mandrill enclosure is also at least on-par with SDZ’s in size and height and I'm fairly certain it's actually larger, though I haven’t found exact dimensions for these. ..."

    "As for herptiles, I think a lot of people here are assuming Bronx has no outdoor herp displays but they actually have 12 (and they have three Komodo Dragon yards and two giant tortoise yards, but I’m counting them all as just two displays), only three less than SDZ. Two of them display native species. As for the others, yes they have to be brought indoors when it gets too cold (though I’ve seen giant tortoises out in the high 40s so I think some reptiles’ tolerance is another thing people sometimes assume is much lower than it is) but that’s why the zoo makes sure it has top notch indoor enclosures. The zoo has one of the best indoor Komodo Dragon enclosures in the country (miles ahead of SDZ’s indoor habitat in size and design; I did not see an outdoor one), and imo their indoor Indian Gharial enclosure beats SDZ’s outdoor enclosure in almost every way- including in size, design with an underwater viewing window, a more impressive mixed species list, and the animals have to climb up and down rock structures if they want to get to the lower pools and as such they get the added benefit of more than just a flat beach area (something seldom found in crocodile exhibits)- other than the benefit of natural heat. Obviously that does matter a great deal with reptiles and outdoors will almost always be better, but remember that the vast, vast majority of SDZ’s reptiles are kept indoors year-round and, for the most part, Bronx’s enclosures are either on-par or much better. Not to mention that SDZ also has to bring their outdoor reptiles inside sometimes as well. I’ve heard that the majority of the species kept outdoors are completely off-exhibit during parts of December and January. What are their indoor accommodations like? I personally managed to see most of them on my visit at the end of the latter month, but there were still a couple enclosures that sat empty (yes I counted those in my total earlier)."

    "... Thankfully for both birds and herps, @snowleopard has been so kind as to share the International Zoo Yearbook stats with us so we can have much more definite numbers here. ... For herps Bronx also sits in a close second place with ~220 species while San Diego is tied for fifth at exactly 190 species. Omaha is the zoo in first place with ~240 species, Nashville is in third with ~210, Dallas and St. Louis are tied for fourth with ~200, and Houston ties with SDZ in fifth with ~190 species. Note that four out of the five zoos that beat SDZ in collection size are all northern zoos. ..."

    Also worth mentioning the all-indoor room the gibbons are kept in is about 20,000sqft in size, and while they obviously can't access all of that like the birds can, they still have plenty of room to swing around. The enclosure features full-size live trees and is roughly 50ft tall at its highest point with a mostly glass ceiling allowing for natural light to be filtered through. The animals are also given plenty of enrichment opportunities by being mixed with tapirs, a wide variety of birds, various tortoises and turtles, and gharial, with all of the above animals also having plenty of room to escape from the others if they so choose.

    I don't think I need to get into details about how great CGF is but before anyone starts screaming it like on my San Diego Zoo thread, no Bronx's gorillas are not locked indoors for six months out of the year. Baboon Reserve is also worth mentioning as it's about an acre in size at least and is home to the only breeding group of Geladas in the US. This exhibit was also previously home to the only Geladas in the US until SDZ was inspired to create their own exhibit in Africa Rocks, which also has them mixed with Nubian Ibex.

    On the herp side of things, Bronx's fantastic conservation work is enough to more then put them over the top for me but I have a feeling it's going to be dismissed for some reason so I'll just focus on the captive aspect. It's definitely worth mentioning that Bronx is the main zoo that imports Indian Gharial from Madras Crocodile Bank and distributes them to other zoos, SDZ's entire group having come from one such import. The zoo has an absolutely fantastic collection of highly endangered freshwater turtles, which includes various rarely seen species such as at least five Cuora species, at least two Batagur species, Egyptian Tortoise, Forsten's Tortoise, Mary River Turtle, Big-Headed Amazon River Turtle, Southern New Guinea Giant Softshell Turtle, Sulawesi Forest Turtle, Bael's Four-Eyed Turtle, and Yellow-Headed Temple Turtle among others. Most of these are on-exhibit, though some are kept strictly off-show, however the reptile house has a window into their nursery room in where visitors can see many of the highly endangered species the zoo hatches. As for the giant tortoises, yeah SDZ has multiple species of Galápagos on-exhibit and yes their enclosures for them are larger than Bronx's, but SDZ isn't breeding any of those tortoises afaik, meanwhile Bronx has an active breeding program for Aldabra Giant Tortoise on-exhibit, and Volcán Darwin Giant Tortoise (C. microphyes) off-exhibit. I know the zoo has also reintroduced at least Chinese Alligators and Puerto Rican Crested Toads back into the wild.

    To be honest, if none of the rest were true, Bronx still wins in herps for me for one very important reason: They single-handedly saved the Kihansi Spray Toad from extinction. Yes SDZ does excellent work with the Critically Endangered Southern Mountain Yellow-Legged Frogs off-exhibit, but Bronx was the zoo that actually grabbed some of the last wild spray toads from Tanzania before they went Extinct in the Wild. Yes Toledo was also instrumental in this program being the only other zoo to keep the founders alive and has had tremendous breeding success, but Bronx was the zoo that actually established the captive population. They then went on to crack captive breeding of them and have bred thousands since, now holding more individuals of this species than SDZ has of herps in general. The zoo also displays the species now, something SDZ does not do with their endangered amphibians, and has signage discussing their excellent success with the species. Their work isn't done, though, as the zoo continues to work in the Kihansi Gorge attempting to establish a reintroduced population back into the wild. They have experimented with solar powered misters and I believe have even sent a few frogs back into the wild already.

    SDZ has an outstanding collection of herps, but the majority of them are there just for the sake of having a big collection. Bronx on the other hand, has a larger collection and the vast majority of them are present with a conservation message and for a captive breeding program.

    ~Thylo
     
    Last edited: 11 Jul 2018
  4. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Conversely, while I must admit San Diego has some truly spectacular primate enclosures, there are still those four abysmal corn crib cages that the zoo houses their Aye-Aye and Kikuyu Black-and-White Colobus in, as well as surplus De Brazza's Monkey and Schmidt's Guenon. Said enclosures photographed below:

    Asian Passage - Four Monkey Exhibits | ZooChat[​IMG]
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    Asian Passage - Four Monkey Exhibits | ZooChat[​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    aye-aye exhibit | ZooChat[​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here is also what I said about these in my review here:

    "By far the worst primate enclosures in the zoo are horribly small and completely metal Kikuyu Colobus and Aye-Aye enclosures located in Asian Passage in the middle of the bear grottos. Now I’m not the one to immediately dismiss a cage because it’s a cage, I know a cage can be done really well, but these are just awful. Besides for their size, the fact that they’re metal from base to ceiling means that they get hot- really hot. I honestly had a difficult time spending too much time searching for the Aye-Ayes and other species because the sun was hitting the area and both the heat and light were reflecting off of the bars making for an extremely uncomfortable experience. The zoo really just needs to demolish that entire section from Sun Bear Forest to Africa Rocks."

    Worth noting that I've only heard of one person actually seeing the Aye-Ayes here.

    ~Thylo
     
  5. pachyderm pro

    pachyderm pro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Less than 24 hours to go and Bronx is currently ahead 13 to 7.
     
  6. dublinlion

    dublinlion Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I like Bronx but surprised to see it so far ahead. I looked up visitor numbers and San d. is first and bronx is 8th, which I suppose is an indication of how niche we are here on zoochat.
     
  7. pachyderm pro

    pachyderm pro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Just to be clear, you do know your only supposed to vote on the categories at hand right? So you can only vote based on the zoos primate and herp collections, exhibits and other criteria.
     
    dublinlion likes this.
  8. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Where did you get these? I forget what the exact order was when my friend and I looked into this a week ago but SDZ wasn't even the top 2.. DAK is the most visited zoological collection in the US.

    ~Thylo
     
  9. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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    About 18 months ago I assembled a chart of updated attendance data:

    America's Most Popular Zoos: Top 41

    It is interesting that I've seen San Diego advertised as 'America's most popular zoo' when in fact if one takes into account theme-park zoos and free zoos then San Diego drops to 5th place. I read an article about Houston Zoo and that facility was advertising itself as 'America's 2nd most popular zoo' and again, if someone were to discount theme park zoos and free zoos then I suppose Houston (in a sneaky way:)) is correct! Incidentally, Bronx Zoo is 10th for annual attendance in the USA.

    Here are the numbers in case people don't wish to use the link above:

    Disney’s Animal Kingdom – 11 million
    Busch Gardens Tampa – 4.3 million
    Lincoln Park Zoo – 3.6 million (free zoo)
    Saint Louis Zoo – 3.5 million (free zoo)
    San Diego Zoo – 3.3 million
    Houston Zoo – 2.5 million
    Columbus Zoo – 2.4 million
    National Zoo – 2.3 million (free zoo)
    Brookfield Zoo – 2.2 million
    Bronx Zoo – 2.1 million
    Como Park Zoo – 2 million (free zoo)
    Denver Zoo – 2 million
    Omaha’s Henry Doorly Zoo – 1.9 million
    Oregon Zoo – 1.7 million
    Los Angeles Zoo – 1.6 million
    Cincinnati Zoo – 1.5 million
    Detroit Zoo – 1.5 million
    Milwaukee County Zoo – 1.4 million
    Philadelphia Zoo – 1.4 million
    Phoenix Zoo – 1.4 million
    Cleveland Zoo – 1.3 million
    Minnesota Zoo – 1.3 million
    Riverbanks Zoo – 1.3 million
    San Diego Zoo Safari Park – 1.3 million
    Toledo Zoo – 1.3 million
    Woodland Park Zoo – 1.3 million
    Indianapolis Zoo – 1.2 million
    Utah’s Hogle Zoo – 1.2 million
    Central Park Zoo – 1.1 million (on only 6 acres!)
    Dallas Zoo – 1.1 million
    Fort Worth Zoo – 1.1 million
    Lowry Park Zoo – 1.1 million
    Memphis Zoo – 1.1 million
    Jacksonville Zoo – 1 million
    Kansas City Zoo – 1 million
    Louisville Zoo – 1 million
    Oklahoma City Zoo – 1 million
    Pittsburgh Zoo – 1 million
    San Antonio Zoo – 1 million
    Zoo Atlanta – 1 million
    Zoo Miami – 1 million
     
    nczoofan likes this.
  10. pachyderm pro

    pachyderm pro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Wining 18 to 10, the Bronx zoo has won the second season of the zoochat cup over the San Diego zoo. Many thanks to everyone who participated, voted and added to discussion. Another season is in the works however, @ZooBinh will be hosting an international aquarium cup in the near future. Then later this year @CGSwans will take back his rightful spot as host with another European themed cup. Once more, thank you to all the participants and thank you to Mr. Swans for the original concept.