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African Elephant import

Discussion in 'France' started by Nisha, 11 Jan 2015.

  1. Nisha

    Nisha Well-Known Member

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  2. loxodontaafrica

    loxodontaafrica Well-Known Member

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    African Elephant Holders in France:

    Parc Zoologique d´Amneville
    Beauval
    Zoo de la Flèche
    Safari de Peaugres
    Planète Sauvage
    Réserve Africaine de Sigean
    Thoiry
    Parc Zoologique Plaisance du touch
     
  3. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    If zoos import under the CITES Convention that is fully in accordance with international laws.

    I personally do applaud a zoo supported endeavour to put the African elephant EEP on a more firmer footing with an outlook to sustainably breed the species for both exhibition / conservation education purposes.

    That there is a certain segment within the Western world condeming every elephant in captivity or endeavour to conservation breed elephants in captivity underlines more their own tunnelvision views of our political, social, economic realitities and the natural environment than about the status of any elephants residing in captivity nor has it any relevance or benefit to securing elephant populations in the wild.

    Read those to notions by PETA - they use the word inhumane a lot as well as portraying captivity for elephants in every institution in captivity as a full scale social drama. That is preposterous beyond words and is very very antropomorphic biased. Their claim that their concern is borne out by concerns over elephant social structure a rather limp since that alone will not conserve sustainably any elephant population in the wild nor in Hwange N.P. in Zimbabwe. They live in kaka cuckoo land where the wilds are romantically untouched and anything away from that is a decripit dungeon or worse .... (think Baden Powell ***).

    For what it is worth - if as is reported - the income generated is ploughed back into conserving elephants and other wildlife in Hwange N.P. that is fully fine!
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2015
  4. Elephas Maximus

    Elephas Maximus Well-Known Member

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    I smell future keeper deaths if those elephants get FC management.
     
  5. clm1950

    clm1950 Well-Known Member

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    Separating baby elephants from their mothers is despicable.
     
  6. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence anywhere inside this feature that this is the case.
    Link: Elephants for Sale in Zimbabwe, Where Parks Are Starved for Funds - Bloomberg

    Where do you get your exact information from if you are so convinced otherwise?

    Remember: a lie repeated over and over does not become the truth nor fact!
     
  7. mikek21

    mikek21 Member

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    I don't necessarily agree with this, but I also don't think it is unprecedented. I thought many of the African elephants in zoos today came into captivity as young animals after their herds / family groups had been culled due to overpopulation concerns. I think culling elephants was a common "conservation" tool years ago. Only young animals would be saved to be sent to other parks and reserves or sold to zoos. Indeed very traumatizing and psychologically damaging for the young animals, but not unprecedented.

    Asian elephants will eventually be extinct in American zoos unless some way is found to supplement the current population. And psychologically damaged young animals is not the answer, but there should be some viable solution.
     
  8. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    No agreeing or disagreeing at this point here! Once more I ask: any evidence to corroborate those "draconian" news features on the Zimbabwe elephant exports?

    Where is the truth in it all?
     
  9. Yassa

    Yassa Well-Known Member

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    Kifaru BWana, I don`t understand what you mean with "draconian news features".

    Are you suggesting that the elephants up for sale are not wild caught and will not be exported without their families? There are reports by tourists that a lot of calves are alrady held in bomas. Lots of calves without their mothers!

    There is lots of research that proves that elephants are among the most social animals on earth with a very long childhood and that females stay with their maternal family for life. The capture of young calves and seperation from their mothers is extremely traumatic for such a social animal with life-long consequences. It is unethical for modern western zoos who claim their mission is conservation and education to have any part in such a stressful, traumatic event.

    In addition, the UAE and China are not exactly known for modern elephant management and sucessful breeding programs. This export is not for conservation, but pure entertainment. Wild-caught animals suffering for entertainment. Great - I thought zoos had moved well past that.

    Now, european zoos have better knowlegde regarding elephant breeding and husbandry then those in China or the UAE, but the only reason why new imports of african elephants are needed for french zoos is that that the cooperation in the African elephant EEP is not working, resulting in very poor breding results. The breeding rate was actually a lot better 10 years ago! The zoos holding african eles are simply not willingly to cooperate and the EEP coordinator is helpless to do anything about that. I am totally against brining in new african elephants unless the management problems in the EEP are fixed.

    By the way - if anyone believes that in a country like Zimbabwe the funds made from this deals will benefit the national parks and will not end up in the pockets of a few (corrupt) politicans is living in "kaka cuckoo land" as well. Same goes for the belief that export permits will only be given if Cites requirements are met and that money will *not* pay a big part in the decision making progress...
     
  10. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    I know full well what the state of affairs is with politics inside and the state of conservation in Zimbabwe and the fact that a good part of the government continues to abuse its powerbase and only daubling in cronyism and policy out of self-interests et cetera.

    Aside from this ..., you would have to admit that something had to give in Zimbabwe of the late 2,000's where this pertains a fair distribution of wealth and resources to the entire Zimbabwean - and primarily black African peasant community -. That this happened - thanks in no undue part to a corrupt Mugabe government and at the expense of excellently functioning conservancies and not large commercial white only farms that only benefitted a certain segment of Zimbabwean society - is an entirely different matter.

    However, I continue to follow the line of current Hwange N.P. local conservation management as just - functioning within their means despite the continueing power struggle inside Zimbabwe's government and without sufficient state funding for national park and conservation program operations - untill such time that documented evidence exists that can be corroborated / confirmed (and not not unsubstantiated tourist(y) reports as you mentioned here). Untill such time I remain unswayed.

    BTW: it would help matters much if you would quote your sources (i.o.w. publicised reports et cetera) fully.
     
  11. Taisha

    Taisha Well-Known Member

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  12. Jurek7

    Jurek7 Well-Known Member

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    It is dishonest and two-faced to criticize human management of elephants without solving threats to elephants in the wild.
     
  13. Nisha

    Nisha Well-Known Member

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  14. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    French zoos never intended to import elephants from Zimbabwe period! It is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. The mere suggestion was introduced - export to reputable captive-breeding/zoos (in Continental Europe) - to have the entire elephant export from Zimbabwe annulled by opponents of this deal.

    In truth, legally and technically it is one of the few valid exporting criteria under current CITES legislature. AND to underline where the whole episode fails to make any real impact nor promotes progress: the media ruckus will not prevent in any way / nor has it prevented any planned export to either P.R. China or Emirates from (not) going through. This sadly is the whole travesty on the part of the opponents of the Hwange capture and sell and export strategy. Nothing but a Pyrrhus victory - if a victory at all -.

    On the ground, I have yet to see any effective contribution to elephant conservation by either Hwange park management nor the media opposition. Neither has till date assisted in producing the real data / rationale for nor has it improved the capacity of local staff and park management nor has it increased the level of - much needed - protection for the national park and its resident elephant and other wildlife populations. None of the above media reports - both from pro and contra factions - contain any real data / evidence of the (real) total population of African elephant and population trends within Hwange. Whether, the Hwange elephant population would really qualify Y/N for any off-take has not been demonstrated by either side. The closest reliable data sets are (alas) already several years back!

    For those in the know: it is an indisputable fact that over-population of elephants has and will have disastrous consequences for tree cover and other wildlife on any given natural range. Thus off-take under circumstances of over-population could constitute a real scientific need - given that many protected areas being surrounded by human habitation and wildlife unable to migrate to other areas naturally.

    That neither side seems much bothered with the facts is the most disturbing point to me. The real criminals here are not those that propose / dissuade from any trade, but those that suggest and manipulate for their own ends either way without making any constructive and real contribution to in situ conservation of the African elephant, other wildlife, the local protected areas and with the parallel benefits to local communities surrounding them.
     
  15. LaughingDove

    LaughingDove Well-Known Member

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    Well said, Kifaru Bwana. I agree completely.
     
  16. Morgan

    Morgan Well-Known Member

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  17. lowland anoa

    lowland anoa Well-Known Member

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    I recall reading that Africa refused to import the elephants to China because the feared that China would kill them for ivory.