Join our zoo community

Antelope TAG Phase-Out Species

Discussion in 'United States' started by Kudu21, 21 Jan 2011.

  1. Kudu21

    Kudu21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,456
    Location:
    US
    According to the Antelope / Giraffe TAG these are the species in which are to phased-out of collections:

    Kéwel (Tragelaphus scriptus)
    Springbok (Antidorcas marsupialis spp.)
    Bay Duiker (Cephalophus dorsalis)
    Maxwell's Duiker (Cephalophus maxwellii)
    Crowned Duiker (Sylvicapra grimmia caffra)
    Suni (Neotragus moschatus)
    Cape Hartebeest (Alcelaphus buselaphus caama)
    Blesbok (Damaliscus pygargus phillipsi)
    Defassa Waterbuck (Kobus ellipsiprymnus defassa)
    Beisa Oryx (Oryx beisa beisa)
    Mhorr Gazelle (Nanger dama mhorr )
    Dorcas Gazelle (Gazella dorcas)
    Nubian Red-fronted Gazelle (Eudorcas rufifrons laevipes)
    Saudi Goitered Gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa marica)
    Persian Gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa spp.)

    There are no phase-ins planned.

    Funny thing is that they also want a population of 50 Jakson's Hartebeest, 50 Rhebok, and 35 Topi when all three of those species are like needles in a zoological haystack.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jan 2011
  2. lee456

    lee456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    23 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    133
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Why Blesbok aren't their wild counterparts in a sorry state?
     
  3. Kudu21

    Kudu21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,456
    Location:
    US
    They say that the reasons to phase Blesbok out of North America are that there is a strong EEP breeding program for the sub-species and they need more room for the Bontebok Population Management Program (PMP).
     
  4. lee456

    lee456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    23 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    133
    Location:
    Norfolk
    That seems to be a fair justification.
     
  5. Kudu21

    Kudu21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,456
    Location:
    US
    An interesting note regarding Saiga and their status with the AZA and Antelope TAG.

     
  6. devilfish

    devilfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    5 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    1,980
    Location:
    Knowle, UK
    It's a shame that there are some pretty interesting species on that list. I'm pleased that quite a few rarely kept species have been omitted, and it's nice to see the optimism with Hartebeest, Topi and Rhebok, but what about Jentink's Duiker? Does it go without saying that this is a phase-out 'in progress' or has it already been listed previously? As many have mentioned on the Gladys Porter Zoo threads, it would be nice to see a boost to their number(s) in the U.S.
     
  7. Kudu21

    Kudu21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,456
    Location:
    US
    The Jentink's Duiker was listed as "In-Situ Conservation" and it was stated that ex-situ work with the species had been tried, but failed. The same thing was said about Zebra Duikers. With those statements, I can't see any more being brought into captivity. When "Gordo" passes, so with the days of Jentink's Duikers in captivity, I'm afraid.
     
  8. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2006
    Posts:
    10,715
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland
    I am shocked that some very endangered species are on that particular list:
    Beisa Oryx (Oryx beisa beisa)
    Mhorr Gazelle (Nanger dama mhorr )
    Dorcas Gazelle (Gazella dorcas)
    Nubian Red-fronted Gazelle (Eudorcas rufifrons laevipes)
    Saudi Goitered Gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa marica)
    Persian Gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa spp.)

    Whereas I can justify this for dorcas gazelle of cross-breed origins (as most US/SSP stock is) and there is a case for the Saudi marica as this ssp. is well represented in M.Eastern collections and these may well be sent back to the Arabian Peninsula where the original ground stock was imported from ...., I cannot for the rest.

    Beisa oryx critically endangered ... in Somalia and Ethopia. Really puzzling.
    Nubian red-fronted. Not found in any other well-established zoo associations outside range. Operating SSP. Few founders an issue, but still ... And what about the Sahara Conservation Fund initiatives and this species being within remit.
    Mhorr gazelle if they export to Europe fine (existing EEP).
    Persian gazelle if they export to Europe fine (when and if the EEP is further developed).
     
  9. Kudu21

    Kudu21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,456
    Location:
    US

    I find it strange myself, but I guess they have their reasons. Speaking of their reasons, these are the reasons the TAG has listed for phasing out those species.

    Beisa Oryx - Strong EEP program; Space needed for other Oryx species.

    Nubian Red-Fronted Gazelle - Small, unviable population in AZA; space needed for other gazelle species.

    Mhorr Gazelle - Strong EEP program; small unviable population in the AZA; space needed for Addra Gazelle SSP.

    Persian Gazelle - Strong programs in other regions; space needed for more endangered gazelle species

    As for the Dorcas and Saudi Goitered Gazelles those are the exact reasons a long with the fact that there are small, unviable populations in the AZA.

    Originally Topi, Rhebok, Royal Antelope, and Ugandan Kob were to be phased out as well but they were reevaluated.

    Topis, Royal Antelope, and Ugandan Kob are now classified under Display / Education / Research Population or (DERP), and Rhebok now have a Population Management Program (PMP)
     
  10. Ituri

    Ituri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    5 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    2,536
    Location:
    Kansas
  11. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2006
    Posts:
    10,715
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland
    I am familiar with all those documents.

    What I do find a concern is disposal of the current stock on phase out.
    I would not like to see any of these rare Mhorr gazelle and Persian goitreds to be sold off to private sources (as happened with the now defunct and world class Canyon Colorado equid collection in the recent past). I would rather that if the SSP sees that more established programmes exist elsewhere (either in the EEP or elsewhere) that they are actually transported there in the first place (and not sold off to the highest bidder).

    As far G.subgutturosa subgutturosa. The ssp. is quite endangered inside their main distribution country Iran and I not for a moment can discern why a 200+ breeding population in the US/SSP can be termed an insignificant number .... And this also being the main reason to phase out this particular programme. :(
     
  12. Safari Park

    Safari Park Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    57
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    These phase-outs have nothing to do with strong EEP's or exsitu insitu i hear so much about on these threads. Sometimes i really think you people believe the crap you write. Zoo's are a business-if they can't move the stock they raise or have no interest in outside sources-they get rid of it.
    San Diego Beisa Oryx - 8.29(wonder why so many females and so few males?) were sent to the dealer in Micanopy, FL from the Iron Mountain after they lost interest. No zoo is interested in this species. They all want the flashy Gemsbok(bigger and more impressive-No they don't care that they are not endangered)
    Goitered Gazelle - The dealers were selling Persian and Arabian off to anyone interested and selling them as whatever they were looking for. Example) Oh, your looking for mariaca - Yeah, these are the Arabians not the Persian. Common person cannot tell the difference and most don't even know there are two types. Well when you cross the two like most in Texas from the zoo dealers they produce infertile hybrids. Ranchers lost interest - dealers couldn't sell them - zoos quite raising them. That simple, don't fancy it up people.
    Mhorr Gazelles - transfered all to Kelleys ranch and Johnson. Johnson deals with alot of the shieks in the Middle East. Sent to him so he can profit off their interest in this particular species.
    Rhebok - insignificant in AZA. Basically all held by two dealers (one in florida and one in texas, go figure)
    Topis - all held by Johnson. Heard they were all sold off recently to a ranch. Population has long been over in the states.
    Dorcas Gazelles - most were sold off to Chatfield and another dealer. The pure Saharawi were given to the billionaire after he saw a group in the Middle East. They all died the first week on the ranch. I think it was around 18 of them.
     
  13. Maguari

    Maguari Never could get the hang of Thursdays. Premium Member

    Joined:
    12 Oct 2007
    Posts:
    4,873
    Location:
    Chesterfield, Derbyshire
    They're wrong on at least one of those counts - there are only very few Beisa Oryx (Oryx beisa beisa) in European zoos, but there's a decent population of Gemsbok (Oryx gazella).
     
  14. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2006
    Posts:
    10,715
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland
    You can dismiss people for writing crap on other fora, but not on here. Certainly not, when there is a rationale behind what one is writing. I do take exception to that.

    As to your arguement: fine that zoos are a business, I - and I am sure most other forumster here - do recognise that fact. But as is inscribed in the WAZA charter to which both AZA and EAZA and quite of few of their member zoos are attached are pretty crystal clear on the whole rationale for zoos in this day and age. It is education, education, education, conservation and a bit of the other and entertainment (infotainment).

    However, selling off stock to the highest bidder when no longer desired certainly where highly threatened or critically endangered taxa are concerned and whose founder populations where acquired from overseas as a conservation concern contravenes the entire spirit of that WAZA mission. This leaves those zoos involved in these dealings very much open to criticism or at least a peculiar method of bending ... the rules and in my view quite rightly so.

    If the very same logic you seem to subscribe to where applied to the great outdoors, most if not all our wildlife, our forests and plants and wild outdoors and such like would be sold off to the highest bidder, and the natural world would be in a far worse state than it is even today.


    As for beisa oryx: there is a sizeable but none to numerous population in some French zoos and previously a flourishing herd in Praha Zoo (now also on phase out).
     
  15. Safari Park

    Safari Park Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    57
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    I'm not sure what you are talking about... so i'm not even going to respond to most of it.

    As for education, education, education believe what you want you must be pretty nieve. The "collection" of a zoo has nothing whatsoever about endangered, education, conservation or any other of that stuff they scream at the public in anyway that they can. You clearly are and have never been in any sort of managment of a major zoo collection. The collection is based on a few simple things. What the zoo director likes to see, what the major board members like and finally whatever the major contributors of donations like. All the other stuff they say are for the nieve zoogoers pumping the admissions to paying the top dogs of the zoo.

    Sure come up with something clever to try and defeat my argument. There is no way to prove my theory nor prove whatever you come up with. I mean come on education? 90% of children in the United States think there breakfast eggs were made in Wal-Mart. The people of this generation are so disconnected with wildlife and farming it is unbelievable and getting worse everyday. You think some 50 million dollar exhibit is really educating children about wildlife? Believe what you want but its alot more to it than that...
     
  16. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    6,599
    Location:
    Abbotsford, B.C., Canada
    A truly alarming statistic that is tied to the phase-out process is this: "there has been a loss of nearly 1,000 spaces in AZA zoos for antelopes since 1999" (CONNECT, Jan. 2011). The staggering reduction in antelope species is widely known by ZooChatters, and yet since antelope are not generally considered popular, marquee mammals probably the majority of visitors simply do not care.
     
  17. Giant Eland

    Giant Eland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4 Feb 2010
    Posts:
    507
    Location:
    Port Washington, NY, USA
    I think about half those spaces were lost when San Diego closed down Horn and Hoof Mesa for the "far superior" Elephant Odyssey :D
     
  18. tschandler71

    tschandler71 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    26 Aug 2011
    Posts:
    1,150
    Location:
    Geraldine AL USA
    I wonder if the next big thing will be antelope that are "compatible" with Elephants ala Dallas. Birmingham is eventually going to look at swift species like Impala to put on the Trails with Elephant
     
  19. BeardsleyZooFan

    BeardsleyZooFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Jul 2011
    Posts:
    3,754
    Location:
    CT, United States
    Impala work out fine with the African Elephants at Lowry Park Zoo, although sometimes the elephants take joy in running torwards them and the guineafowl too.
     
  20. 6647

    6647 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Aug 2012
    Posts:
    196
    Location:
    N/A
    Okay.

    Because Kewel and Suni are just pouring out of American zoos, aren't they?