Join our zoo community

Are the WDCS against cetaceans in captivity?

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by sealion, 29 May 2010.

  1. sealion

    sealion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    354
    Location:
    UK
    I was wondering whether they are or not, because all I can find on their website is stuff against whaling and Lolita in captivity (which can be called a one-off as many pro-captivists would like to see her moved).

    Anyone know?

    I would be interested in getting involved if they weren't, but I can't really tell. Obviously it's not really much of an issue in the UK at the moment.

    Thanks
     
  2. sealion

    sealion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    354
    Location:
    UK
    I think i've found my answer. They are. Shame :(.
     
  3. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    10 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    7,776
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    For us non-Europeans, what is WDCS?
     
  4. Deviant*Strain

    Deviant*Strain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21 Apr 2010
    Posts:
    67
    Location:
    UK
    Whale & Dolphin Conservation Society.


    Yes, they are heavily anti-captive Dolphins and Whales. They actually helped close down the UK dolphinarium with their protests. They think they can do a Free Willy and send them "FWEEE!!11!1!!!" I'm a "sit on the fence" gal and seriously, I do NOT want to see Lolita move because the stress will kill her.
     
  5. sealion

    sealion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    354
    Location:
    UK
    Of course! I had forgotten about those!
    What a let down!
    No-one seems to remember that Keiko died!!
    Regarding Lolita, she is old and it would be stressful (although many dolphins and whales are transported all the time with minimum fuss these days), but at the same time I don't like the thought of people not atleast attempting to get her out of that fishbowl during her lifetime in this day and age. It shows that at least in the USA, the laws on cetacean welfare don't really mean anything!
    Atleast people have realised that a complete release is not really feasible!
    But Lolita is another story.....

    Why do all of these societies have to have such strong views on captivity?:mad:
    Anyone know of any UK based cetacean/pinniped charities/societies that aren't so against captivity?
     
  6. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire
    i hate it when people use keikos death as a reason why no orca should ever be released again.
    he died of pneumonia (a condition caused by water entering the lungs through the blowhole, and is a common cause of death even in captive animals)
    he also survived for seven months and was in constant contact with a team of people who he trusted. he was observed hunting and feeding himself successfully, they taught him to negotiate sea ice and took regular blood tests to make sure he was well. he showed no signs of dissease until two days before he died. there was nothing anyone could do (even if he had still been in captivity) he was not just dumped back in the sea on his own.

    what did not help him were the stupid people who tried to swim with him, ride on him, be close to him and throw fish to him to try to encourage him back to shore. they should have been prosecuted.

    BUT, i will admit that he was not the best canndidate for release, he was just a victim of hollywood/the press wanting a good story.
    as a unrelated male he would not have been allowed into another pod, but he was all alone in his tank anyway. was'nt it better to give him a chance than let him die alone, underweight and diseased in his tiny tank.

    pro captivists also like to forget that miami sea aquarium applied for a permit to re catch him from the wild and put him in with lolita beacuse they wanted them to breed. and everyone knows the size of that tank is appalling. (then claim that these places have the best interests of the animals at heart)

    a better choice would have been a group of young related females, or even kshamenk from mundo marino who is known to be aggressive towards trainers and so sexualy frustrated he regulary tries to mate with the dolphin. a small pod could have been created prior to release.

    lolita would not be a candidate because she is too weak mentally, she has to have her food cut up 'just so' or she wont eat it. if a trainer leaves she becomes stressed and upset for several months. to me this is just one of the many,many reasons these places should not exist, the mental stress is causes them is incredible (lolita is far from the only whale with problems)

    many dolphins have been released successfully back into the wild and orca are the largest of the dolphin family - there is no reason for it not to work with the right whales and a little less media attention.



    i am strongly agaisnt these places they should all be shut down imediatly.
    dolphins are the most intelligent animals on earth, to use them purely for entertainment is cruel.
     
    Last edited: 31 May 2010
    TheAmurTiger likes this.
  7. sealion

    sealion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    354
    Location:
    UK
    You are forgetting that many pro-captivists are against Miami Seaquarium.

    And they are not used purely for entertainment purposes. Take the Clearwater Marine Aquarium in Florida for example. Large companies like Seaworld can afford to put lots of money into conservation efforts, such as the clean up of the bp oil spill currently in the news.
    You have also contradicted yourself with you opinion on releasing Keiko and Lolita.
    You disagree with trying to move Lolita but then say that you are glad thet even though Keiko died it was better than he did not die alone in a tank.

    I suggest you read some of the other threads on here as there are many
    factors you do not seem to have considered:

    http://www.zoochat.com/38/will-dolphins-other-marine-mammals-ever-147712/
    http://www.zoochat.com/22/killer-whale-kills-trainer-seaworld-131568/
    http://www.zoochat.com/2/cove-147128/
     
  8. DDcorvus

    DDcorvus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    1,235
    Location:
    everywhere and nowhere
    And how do you think about keeping great apes, elephants or crows?
     
  9. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    13 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    24,677
    Location:
    tomorrow
    I love it when people say this, even disregarding the fact that dolphins are not as intelligent as humans so the claim is proven wrong immediately. It always makes me think of the following article (accept it or not as you like, and note that its not a recent article so the "latest studies" alluded to aren't the latest at all any more ;))
    New Page 1
     
  10. sealion

    sealion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    354
    Location:
    UK
    Interesting article!
     
  11. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire

    and many pro-activists love MSA.

    yes some places do some good work that i have never denied, but seaworld for example are paid by the government a grant for every animal they release back into the wild. very little of their own money goes into conservation (less than 5% annualy).
    also dont forget that some shady places have paid aquariums in other countries (where catching animals from the wild is still legal) to catch animals for them, they then spend several months getting used to captivity before being shipped to countries like america.
    some places have also admitted to forcing animals to beach themselves tham claim that they have 'rescued' them. saying that they rescued an animal gets them good publicity, and its cheeper than catching one from the wild. many rescued animals have gone on to be performing ones.

    i dont understand using clearwater as a good example after the amount of strange / preventable deaths they have had.
    Sickness and death can plague marine mammals at parks - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

    helping with the oil spill gets them lots of good PR.

    regarding the keiko/lolita comment, what i meant to say was, keiko was not the best choice of candidate being a lone male, but lolita is next to impossible due to her medical conditions,and psycological state.
    it was possible to at least try with keiko but i cant see it working at all with lolita.

    this is a subject i have taken an intrest in for over 15 years - i have considered it from every angle and read books/websites/talked to people from both sides for years. it is still a practise i dont agree with.

    http://www.dolphinproject.org/help-stop-export-of-us-dolphins.html
    Dolphin Care UK - Dolphinarium and Captivity
    Marine Connection
    captivite
    Oceanic Preservation Society - Facts
    Aquariums
    Swimming with Dolphins and other Dolphin Encounters
    Lolita, Come Home - Miami Seaquarium's captive whale
    Ark Animals: Orca Attack (Killer Whale Attacks) Animal Expert Comments of Diana L Guerrero
    Atlantic Whale Foundation
    AR-News: Cruelty claim stirs up Seaworld
    Information On Dolphins: The Interactive Dolphin Tank At Sea World
    Save The Whales - Captivity
    Captive Orca Statistic -ONE OF THE BEST INFO SITES
    Miami Seaquarium lolita Tank
    Coalition for No Whales in Captivity (CFNWIC) > Captivity
    Orca Network Lolita/Captivity Page
    Orca
    Dolphin therapy is booming despite concerns about efficacy and animal cruelty - washingtonpost.com
    SAFE : Marineland
    Animal Welfare Institute
    Tursi's Dolphin Page
     
  12. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire
    yes, it is possible to make some kind of argument agaisnt keeping any animal in captivity. but my specific area i have taken an intrest in is cetaceans.

    i beleve they suffer more in captivity than any other type of animal. for example in the wild dolphins spend 70% of their time underwater, in captivity they are forced to spend 70% at the surface which causes all types of skin complaints. they also suffer more psycologicaly. seaworld have admited to keeping them on tranquilizers and antidepressants (all for the sake of a few jumps and twirls)
    the average lifespan of orcas in the wild is 30 -60 in captivity it is still only 12.6 years. (a statistic that has not improved since the 70's)

    not every zoo is capable of keeping great apes and elephants but some are, but there is nowhere on earth that is capable of keeping cetaceans in conditions that resemble anything like their wild habbitat.
    yes we have come far from the days of training animals useing starvation but conditions are still not good enough.
    breeding elephants / apes in captivity helps the wild population, i dont see how breeding hybrid inbred orca helps the wild ones.
    plus dolphin and orca are kept primarly for entertainment. circuses with animals have declined rapidly in popularity i dont understand why these places remain ecceptable.
     
  13. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire
    this is the article i was refering too.
    http://www.marineconnection.org/news/general/dolphin_intelligence.htm DATED MARCH THIS YEAR.
     
  14. Ned

    Ned Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    20 May 2009
    Posts:
    1,063
    Location:
    South Gloucestershire, UK
    When you back up your claim for dolphins being intelligent by citing an article from an anti-dolphinaria organisation you completely discredit yourself. If you’ve spent fifteen years reading propaganda you can hardly conceder yourself knowledgeably. You need to read the papers published by scientists who have researched intelligence in dolphins, you need to scrutinise these papers and look for the flaws in their research and then you can reach your own conclusions about dolphin intelligence.
    If you come back with a more learned opinion on the subject I’d take you more seriously.
     
  15. Deviant*Strain

    Deviant*Strain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21 Apr 2010
    Posts:
    67
    Location:
    UK
    Right, Lolita has no health problems. Her problem is her behaviour. If you'd even stopped to think about that side of it, maybe you wouldn't have said that she had health problems. She HATES the smallest change in her environment. Her fish has to be cut up into measured sections, any larger or smaller she will not eat. She will not eat a whole salmon or anything like that. She doesn't like massive changes to even the behaviours she does but the trainers do their best. MSQ do give their animals astounding care, they've had some of the oldest Dolphins and one of the oldest Orca's in captivity. They're doing something right at least.

    To say there isn't an arguement against captivity is just... silly. Let's start with the capture methods that were/are used. Dragging nets, banging poles and PHYSICALLY restraining animals to get them into small netted off areas, terrifying many more animals than netted and killing many more than were wanted for aquaria. This DOES still happen in the poorer areas of the world. The ratio's of dead to alive animals at capture is astounding. Feeding, giving a highly intelligent predator dead food is mocking them, but guess which psycho's got that banned (PETA, WDCS etc etc). Tearing up family groups, Bottlenosed Dolphins have relatively loose family connections seeing as they break off all the time but rejoin. Orca's and Pilot Whales however have bonds that are not just important, but essential. Moving calves from mothers in captivity is awful, moving siblings or close friends is cruel, but it does have to happen to stop inbreeding. The size of tanks. Marineland in France's pool is great, but should be the minimum. I know SW and the MSQ have little to no room for expansion, nor the favour of local governments.

    However, to say that these Orca's and dolphins can be freed... wow. Just no. Keiko WAS a failiure. He DID NOT feed on his own, he was watched for a few months once they let him out and then they stopped. They watched the tracker, but only went to help when he got stuck in ice and then in Norway. Kieko never moved with a pod of Orca's, he always headed to boats and anything where he could sense people. He was a poor candidate at best, BUT a good example of the animals that are in captivity. Orca's will never be good candidates for release whilst they're kept how they are. If it's radicalised and they're kept like Tigers with distance and immense caution, then maybe. But not now.

    I also love the arguement from PETA-likes that still borns, miscarriage's and inbreeding only happens in captivity when we KNOW that it does in the wild. Life expentancy is another one 90 years is NOT average, that's like saying we should all live to be 124... just not. The statistic for captive Orca's in the 70's was more like 5 years :) Now it's more like 14 years (it goes up and down all the time). They still spend as much time under the water as they do in the wild. SW did NOT admit to that, they don't do it. Do you know how dangerous it is to keep an animal on sedatives that chooses to breathe? Get your facts from a non-biased source rather than The Rectory, Peepchick on youtube and several other insanes that I can think of. I'm tired of these arguements. Don't be a sheep and do your own research.
     
  16. DDcorvus

    DDcorvus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    1,235
    Location:
    everywhere and nowhere


    can you give concrete examples and sources of this?
     
  17. Deviant*Strain

    Deviant*Strain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21 Apr 2010
    Posts:
    67
    Location:
    UK
    I think she may be reffering to Kshamenk of Mundo Marina, Argentina. They've admitted that all of their Orca's and a couple of BND's were forced to strand. Taiji whale Museum, Port of Nagoya and Izu-Mito never denied their animals where from Taiji Dolphin Drives nor claimed them to be rescues.


    Guess what, Jen-Jen, one of the most stimulating things you can get any animal to do is learn. Training is simply that. Many rescued dolphins do start copying their 'performing' friends. They will do so without being asked and join in the show. FKW's have done this, Common Dolphins, Pilot Whales and even Sea Lions. They learn naturally.
     
  18. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire

    wow, your going discredit me after i refered to one article. yes i do read scientific papers as well, i said i did. and i have spoted flaws in several pro cap websites too and have corrected some anti cap peoples arguments when they have been wrong. but i'd say the article i posted was from a more reputable sorce than the one you posted.
     
  19. jenjen

    jenjen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2010
    Posts:
    53
    Location:
    england hampshire
    oh, pleses dont call me a PETA-like, i actually cant stand them. and i have no idea who peepchick is.

    i never said they live to 90 in the wild, i know its very rare. i meant that consider all the advances in medicine, husbandry ect, the life expectancy in the wild is still considerably higher than captivity.

    out of the 153 orca that have died in captivity, NONE have made it to their wild average life expectancy. in the wild a orca can live for around 30 for a male 60 years for a female - in captivity they are lucky to reach 15. Of the 194 killer whales in captivity since 1964, almost 2/3 didn’t make it passed 10 years in captivity. Less than 30 orcas survived more than 20 years in captivity. Average time in captivity has improved steadily over the decades, but is still very low.


    "Don't be a sheep and do your own research."
    how about you do your own research and stop listening to just what seaworld say.
    you want examples, ok.---- (refering to taima who died giving birth yesterday)

    "Dr. Chris Dold, vice president of veterinary services for Orlando-based SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment ... said SeaWorld has not had a mother killer whale die while giving birth in more than 25 years."
    --> Samoa died during labor of a near full-term fetus in March 1992. Already forgotten? Two more females died during their pregnancies in 1991 and 2001.

    "The company, which operates SeaWorld marine parks in Orlando, San Diego and San Antonio, says it has recorded 26 successful killer-whale births since its first in 1985. Losses of the fetus are more common, although Dold said the rate of killer-whale stillbirths is significantly lower in SeaWorld's parks than it is in the wild."
    --> To my knowledge there is no scientific data of stillbirths in the wild to compare with. But almost a third out of the 37 known SeaWorld pregnancies didn't result in a live calf (7 stillbirths, 5 miscarriages). Two calves died after a couple days, two more didn't reach their third birthday. Hardly a record to brag about...

    On CNN, Dold said "the birthing success rate is about 50 percent in the wild and 85 percent in a zoological situation."
    --> The birthing success rate for killer whales in captivity is actually 74 percent, at SeaWorld it is just 68 percent. The "50 percent in the wild" that Dold cites is the estimated survival rate of a wild killer calf in its first year. If I'd count that, the captivity numbers get even worse.



    And dont even get me started on the cooling pumps that can be heard underwater 24/7, the increased aggression between orcas and towards trainers, the stress related diseases. Different orca species actively avoid each other and never interbreed. Yet theme parks put animals from different races and regions in the same tanks and expect them to mate and eat the same food and get along (they often dont). the fact that in the wild orcas stay together for life yet in captivity they are regularly split up.

    i love zoos, yes but i am not blind to the fact that some animals just dont belong in captivity.


    (and too the other poster, yes i was refering to kshamenk and others, and Mundo Marino (which is a terrible place. the tank is old, rusty and broken) several people were arrested for the crime which they admitted but have yet to stand trial)
     
  20. Deviant*Strain

    Deviant*Strain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    21 Apr 2010
    Posts:
    67
    Location:
    UK
    Right:

    A) I never said YOU in particular were PETA-likes, there are many.

    B) We haven't had Orca's in captivity long enough to see how old they'll get (Corky and Lolita are 40+. Ulises of SWC is about 33 probably older). But the most accurates are going to be orca's like Kalina who were born there.

    C) Taima's death was an accident. It happens in the wild too. Of course deaths like that have happened before, it happens for humans in 1st world and 3rd world country's. It's very common accross species, not just for Orca. Plus, we only see it in life in captivity cos hey, we can see them there we can't always be with them in the wild. If that were possible... anti-caps would have a shock.

    D) Err how is having a 75% chance in captivity worse than a 50% chance in the wild? And that's not a guess, it's known for the most studied pods that the first year is a 50/50 go.

    E) "Yet theme parks put animals from different races and regions in the same tanks and expect them to mate and eat the same food and get along (they often dont). the fact that in the wild orcas stay together for life yet in captivity they are regularly split up."

    Where do I start? Right, in the 60's all the way up to the 80's, Orca societies weren't known about. We especially didn't know about dialects and family connections. These places do NOT expect everyone to get along OR mate. But they often DO. The fact that captive orca's have to be split up is horrible, yes, but it has to be done. People moan enough about calves from unrelated parents, what about another Nalani (And yes, mother-son breeding does and has happened in the wild).

    A species that REALLY doesn't belong in captivity are Octopus. They do NOT breed, they do NOT live long and they become ill within 2 weeks of being in human care. Orca's do not suffer as badly as you make out. They do not get ill all the time and they do not always suffer miscarriages. The USA and Europe do not get or capture wild animals, it's captive bred only. South America, Canada and Asia, Russia do not have the same laws. Go after them for captures not SW. Both SW and Six Flags tried to get Kshamenk over the years not for their gain (Seriously, in an aggressive transient like Kshamenk, not much personal gain) but to get him out of there. The cooling pumps are not heard by the animals, how do I know? Because they are kept in buildings that have thick walls so the animals barely hear it.

    Wild Orca's do not actively avoid each other, if they come accross each other they generally breed. The saying "stay together for life" is rubbish considering pods break up, rejoin and break up again. Generally males staying with mothers and the females going off with sons and calves. They do inbreed heavily. Sex for cetaceans and apes isn't only for reproduction. They do it a LOT for pleasure.

    To me, if you don't mind Elephants in captivity, you can't mind Orca's in captivity. You can't recreate a savannah anywhere but Africa, you can't recreate the San Juan islands on land. BUT you do the best you can for the animals.

    It was PETA-likes that killed Keiko. Seriously. Even the FreeWilly Foundation admitted it was a failiure.