Join our zoo community

big animals in city zoos...

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by patrick, 14 Dec 2007.

  1. Coquinguy

    Coquinguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2005
    Posts:
    1,757
    Location:
    australia
    by the end of next year taronga will have finalised its bull elephant facility, doubling the space available to the elephants to more than 4000 square metres.
    there is a section of the zoo earmarked for an asian highlands precinct to be built in the next few years-it sits adjacent to wild asia and could be connected to the elephant barn. if taronga decided to expand into this part of the zoo it would again enlarge the exhibit space, and its a feasible idea considering most of the species earmarked for the asian highland zone are now going to be phased out of ARAZPA institutions. exhibits for snow leopards and tahr are already in place, so this area i am thinking of is essentially freed up.
    on the grass comment......i dont think anyone expected the grass to hold up to the impact of 5 elephants, but i dont think it makes it a bad exhibit, just not as pretty as it was before the animals moved in. i dont think grass is 'needed' for breeding, look at chester zoo for example. the elephants have fresh browse every day and are surrounded by lush vegetation, and of the 2000 metres of exhibit, the whole thing is terraced, essentially creating 2 seperate exhibits, increasing the level of visual interest for the animals. what the elephants recquire is a largish exhibit which they have, exercise and enrichment opportunities, stimulation from the surrounding exhibits and a stable herd structure. the fact that our climate in Australia is so mild does not negate the animals need for space, but it does mean that the animals dont have to have as much space indoors to compensate for the winter months when they cant really go outside.
    your point about the animals temperment is a valid one.....no one knows what will happen. but taronga spent a hell of a long time selecting the animals on the basis of temperment and ability to forge a herd, and the animals have a strong connection with a stable and highly skilled keeping team who are employing cutting edge management/husbandary techniques. i am confident that the animals will continue to be able to walked out of their exhibit in the future, with the obvious exception of the bull.
    if Taronga's elephant team can foster and nurture this bond with their animals than there is no reason to suspect that walking the cows down to the bulls paddock every day couldnt happen wiell into the future.

    personally, my vision for taronga zoo does not include animals like giraffes and rhino. when it comes down to megavertebrates id only keep elephant, river hippo, big cats, bears and great apes. with species like giraffe, rhino, zebra and antelope being relocated permanently to Western Plains Zoo, giving the fewer species more room. id spread the asian elephant across the entire middle section of the zoo, and change the current african waterhole exhibit into an immersion exhibit for gorilla, hippo and small primate. once again, as with elephants, exciting maxi exhibits could be centred around one or two large, charismatic species.
     
  2. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    2,433
    Location:
    melbourne, victoria, australia
    yassa - i think thats a good point. apart from the fact that i think its justification enough to be opposed to small exhibits simply becuse i belive they are boring (no matterhow enriched) for the animals, the excercise issue is a big one for the elephants. whilst i know the zoos try very hard to keep the animals in shape, i doubt they get as much exercise as they should..

    its worth noting that whilst there is an expansion option for melbourne (if they went into the current giraffe paddock) niether zoo has really planned for it and it is going to become a significant problem.

    why?

    becuse neither taronga or melbourne have room for many more elephants and they will be seriously put out if either zoo produces a male calf.

    its a fact that despite what has been constantly reiterated to the public, neither zoo has real plans to develop a "stable muligenerational herd". that is a lie.

    expect to see herds split, as non-breeding females are sent off to fulfill display purposes at other zoos like auckland.
     
  3. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7 May 2005
    Posts:
    3,433
    Location:
    Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
     
  4. kiwi

    kiwi Member

    Joined:
    12 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    6
    Location:
    newguay, cornwall ,Engeland
    :)Dont know whats happening to the Diana Monkeys . But will try and find out! I am a student at Newquay college in Zoological Conservation , and we are always i the zoo as its next door.
     
  5. ^Chris^

    ^Chris^ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 May 2007
    Posts:
    676
    Location:
    UK
    I think Yassa's example was simply saying that large 'open space' (i.e. space for space's sake, with nothing in it) can be wasted on animals like great apes because they have no use for it. Being a rainforest animal, they are used to enclosed spaces, so even though they should have access to a large area, it really ought not be 'open'. The area provided should be designed to stimulate the animals.

    In the case of large animals, giraffes and rhinos for example, (animals used to living in large open areas) the space itself is a form of stimulation because it gives them chance to move more freely (or not just a 'chance to'- it actually forces them to exercise). Its not purely a question of size, but largely a question of behaviour.

    I hope I have not put words in your mouth, Yassa. Is that what you meant?
     
  6. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,455
    Location:
    Europe
    @Chris: That's actually too generalizing (think of gorillas in the African Bais-see Zoo Schmiding in Austria, too- or chimpanzee populations in intersections between forest and savanna) and I already addressed that by addressing the Patas monkey as an OPEN savanna species. All the mentioned larger species equally benefit from a structured, "stimulating" exhibit as a climbing species like said primates, combined with accident-preventing enclosure designs (e.g. no bottlenecks)-think of the Benjes hedges in zoos like Munich's Tierpark Hellabrunn. Animals like great apes, especially chimps and gorillas, can equally benefit from "open", yet nevertheless structured exhibit especially in terms of intraspecific social activities i.e. hunting or fleeing from each other. In the case of the Orang-Utans, due to the highly arboreal life-style, this is less so-but in regard of the common keeping of social groups of orang-utans, said room for intrasocial activities (including retreats) should not be neglected.
     
  7. ^Chris^

    ^Chris^ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 May 2007
    Posts:
    676
    Location:
    UK
    I think we're kind of forced to generalise in this scenario given every species' requirements are unique. Generally, ungulates and elephants, require more open space. Would you not agree with that opinion?
     
  8. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,455
    Location:
    Europe
    Due to the reasons mentioned before-no, I don't agree with that statement of Yours.
     
  9. Coquinguy

    Coquinguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2005
    Posts:
    1,757
    Location:
    australia
    as the ARAZPA management strategy for asian elephants comes into effect, with cows breeding, there will of course be space issues. but that would happen at any zoo in Australia, even at places like Western Plains Zoo.
    zoos in europe and north america routinely move female elephants from one zoo to another, and this doesnt seem to effect the breeding program.
    ultimately, i would like to see mothers, daughters and calves kept together-of the original 4 cows imported to taronga for example, the two oldest cows are quite close, as are the two youngest. if in a few years time the two eldest produced and tang mo and thong dee, the younger females, were sent off to another zoo....say Auckland to begin the program there i dont this would be a big problem.
    now this is getting really off topic lol. merry christmas everyone
     
  10. ^Chris^

    ^Chris^ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 May 2007
    Posts:
    676
    Location:
    UK
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)
     
  11. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    5 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    20,706
    Location:
    england
    Thankyou. There are only a relatively few zoos in UK keeping and breeding them. Newquay at one time had a group of about six but now are listed as having only 0.2. I think another female was sent to Paignton recently as they have a breeding pair also. I'm wondering if Newquay are going out of them now, or intending to get another male...
     
  12. BlackRhino

    BlackRhino Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    17 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    757
    Location:
    OH, USA
    urban zoo animals still get seriously short-changed in the space department.

    Wow! You could not be more wrong. Have you seen Congo Gorilla Forest at Bronx Zoo!? It is a huge naturalistic habitat giving the gorillas plenty of space. Probably the largest and nicest Gorilla habitat in the United States and it just so happens to be in the largest city in the United States!

    Tiger Mountain too. 3 acre tiger habitat in the largest U.S. city. I don't think whether or not the zoo is in a city means it has smaller exhibits.

    On elephant space, as long as elephants have at least two acres, they do pretty well. Some city zoos will be getting huge elephant habitats (3-4 acres) and will be in some of the biggest cities. I think what matters is how much space the zoo has itself. Some of the best zoos are in huge cities. In fact Bronx Zoo arguably the best zoo in America is in America's biggest city.
     
  13. okapikpr

    okapikpr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Feb 2008
    Posts:
    1,985
    Location:
    Florida
    Most urban zoos arent quite as big as the Bronx. You could say they are the exception to the rule.
     
  14. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    7,583
    Location:
    Abbotsford, B.C., Canada
    There are some major urban zoos that are surrounded on all 4 sides by residential neighbourhoods. Zoo Atlanta's 35 or so acres and Seattle's Woodland Park Zoo both battle noise pollution and the presence of masses of people literally on their doorstep. The Bronx Zoo is fabulous, but is definitely an exception to the rule in terms of the amount of viable space that is allotted to the zoological collection.

    I am definitely one person on this site (and there are a number of others) that is all about SPACE for captive animals. It's interesting how the San Diego Zoo used to have rhinos and cheetahs that never reproduced, and then in 1972 the San Diego Wild Animal Park opened up and there have been herds of animals reproducing in vast numbers. The Wild Animal Park has around 600 births each and every year, and so many urban zoos would aid conservation by simply condensing their collections. Create one massive paddock, install a crash of rhinos, and then voila...babies would pop out every 6 months.
     
  15. PAT

    PAT Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    16 Jan 2008
    Posts:
    1,557
    Location:
    Victoria
    I agree with Snowleopard. I don't really think big animals such as hippos and rhinos are going to benefit as much from a car tyre to play with then if they had enough space that grass would still grow. What's more enriching then grass to graze on?
     
    Last edited: 17 Sep 2008
  16. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    5 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    20,706
    Location:
    england
    Ah, but how much of it was the result of the additional animals added to the groups, providing stimulation and a wider choice of breeding partners? Of course, the two are connected, as it was the extra space which allowed for large groups, but it may be the larger groups, not the space, that actually stimulated breeding.

    Of course I'm an advocate for giving captive animals the largest space possible anyway(preferably designed so they will use it all too...)
     
  17. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    5 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    20,706
    Location:
    england
    I may be wrong here but I don't think wild Gorillas 'live' in the open Bais- rather they just emerge into these forest clearings to forage for short periods, before retiring back into the covered forest where they live for most of the time? Hence the reluctance of Gorillas in zoos to make much use of open exhibits for long periods.
     
  18. taun

    taun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    3,928
    Location:
    England

    This is my understanding of Wild Gorillas also.
     
  19. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    7,583
    Location:
    Abbotsford, B.C., Canada
    Pertinax and Taun have brought up good points in regards to gorilla behaviour, and nothing is more frustrating for me than seeing open meadows that are supposedly representative of true ape habitats. The Los Angeles, Pittsburgh and Toledo zoos have spacious gorilla fields where there is an almost complete lack of shade and cover. Brutal exhibits that cost millions of dollars and aren't even appropriate for the animals.
     
  20. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7 May 2005
    Posts:
    3,433
    Location:
    Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
    Who would be designing exhibits like these ? :eek: