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British Isles Cup Redux - FINALS - Cotswold vs RZSS

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by TeaLovingDave, 21 Dec 2020.

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Cotswold vs RZSS - PRIMATES and SOUTH/CENTRAL AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN

Poll closed 24 Dec 2020.
  1. Cotswold 5/0 RZSS

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Cotswold 4/1 RZSS

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Cotswold 3/2 RZSS

    28.6%
  4. RZSS 3/2 Cotswold

    28.6%
  5. RZSS 4/1 Cotswold

    42.9%
  6. RZSS 5/0 Cotswold

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    So, it comes down to this - one final match before the British Isles Cup is over. There's been rather less participation that I had hoped (particularly considering the fact that the abortive version run by @CGSwans at the start of the year had close to three times as many people participating, so it isn't merely an issue of people not having visited the collections in question) but that is all behind us now :p hopefully this last one will spark a decent bit of discussion.....

    The categories are comfortably familiar ones - PRIMATES and SOUTH/CENTRAL AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN - and hopefully by now we all know that they are to be judged on a wide spectrum of possible factors, including but not limited to conservation, exhibit quality and collection size.

    So, let us see where the discussion takes us shall we?
     
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  2. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    I think that as regards these categories, RZSS wins this one by a long shot (with particular strong points including the quality of the Budongo Trail exhibit, the Living Links exhibit complex for Brown Capuchin and Common Squirrel Monkey, involvement in the Budongo Conservation Field Station in Uganda, their exhibits for Golden-Cheeked Gibbon and Giant Anteater at Edinburgh, and the Vicuna and Japanese Macaque exhibits at HWP) but I will leave it to others to make the case for either collection in full.
     
  3. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    I think Edinburgh definitely smash this one.

    A full house in terms of primates. Great apes are represented by the chimpanzee, lesser apes by the buff cheeked gibbon, old world monkeys by a really nice selection of mainly African species (drill, Diana's monkey, L'Hoest's monkey, gelada) and lemurs too (ring tailed lemur, red bellied lemur, crowned lemur).

    New world primates are a far stronger hand for Edinburgh too with both the common capuchin and the critically endangered buffy headed capuchin, common squirrel monkey, white faced saki monkey, owl monkey, vulnerable Goeldi's monkey, pygmy marmoset and critically endangered cotton top tamarin.

    General South American mammals is quite good too and particularly in terms of Edentata with giant anteater, hairy armadillo, southern three banded armadillo. Also carnivores like the margay as well as hoofstock like Vicuna and pudu (though they lack the lowland tapir which CWP has).

    Birds are a little weaker than CWP with Chilean flamingo, red fronted macaw, king penguin (kind of South American I suppose).

    Reptiles, I have no idea what they have but apparently they have a tegu so that is at least one South American species.

    Amphibians are represented by two poison dart frogs.
     
    Last edited: 21 Dec 2020
  4. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    RZSS primates:

    Goeldi's monkey
    Common chimpanzee
    Common squirrel monkey
    Cottontop tamarin
    Crowned lemur
    Diana monkey
    Drill
    Eastern pygmy marmoset
    Gelada
    Grey-handed night monkey
    Guianan brown capuchin
    L'Hoest's monkey
    Red-bellied lemur
    Red-cheeked gibbon
    Ring-tailed lemur
    White-faced saki
    Yellow-bellied capuchin
    Japanese macaque

    Chimpanzee exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Lemur walkthrough (Red-bellied lemur, Ring-tailed lemur, Crowned lemur)

    [​IMG]

    Both capuchin species and Squirrel monkey mixed exhibit (with a nice indoor exhibit as well):

    [​IMG]

    Gibbon exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    Japanese macaque

    [​IMG]


    Cotswold WP primates up next to compare :)
     
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  5. pipaluk

    pipaluk Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Those are the good exhibits at Edinburgh, any photos of the monkey house available? Not everything is that good!
     
  6. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Unfortunately not, but you are correct in the sense that Edinburgh is not all nice, large and green exhibits for their primates.

    Cotswold Wildlife Park primates (unsure in italics)

    Bearded emperor tamarin
    Common squirrel monkey
    Cottontop tamarin
    Crowned sifaka
    Golden-handed tamarin
    Greater bamboo lemur
    Lac Aloatra bamboo lemur
    Lar gibbon
    Lesser mouse lemur?
    Pygmy marmoset
    Red titi
    Red-bellied lemur
    Ring-tailed lemur
    Senegal bushbaby
    Siamang
    Western guereza
    White and black ruffed lemur

    I think actually the Cotswold WP primate lineup might actually be more interesting than that at Edinburgh, with the bushbabies, siamangs, sifakas and bamboo lemurs.

    Cottontop tamarin exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    Senegal bushbaby exhibit (on the left)

    [​IMG]

    Sifaka exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    Grey mouse lemur exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    Walkthrough lemur exhibit:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Siamang:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Lar gibbon:

    [​IMG]

    I think Edinburgh wins on exhibit quality, although Cotswold's species lineup is really quite interesting (one of the most interesting in the UK in fact imo).
     
  7. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Had a look at the species lists for South America next, and found that Cotswold WP actually had a far better lineup than RZSS, greater in terms of rarity and number:

    Cotswold (Subtracting already included primates):
    Azara's agouti
    Capybara
    Giant anteater
    Linnaeus' two-toed sloth
    Patagonian mara
    Seba's short-tailed bat
    Six-banded armadillo
    South American tapir
    Southern tamandua

    Black curassow
    Black-crowned night heron
    Blue and yellow macaw
    Blue throated piping guan
    Burrowing owl
    Chilean flamingo
    Chiloe wigeon
    Coscoroba swan
    Fulvous whistling duck
    Green aracari
    Humboldt penguin
    Muscovy duck
    Northern pintail
    Red shoveler
    Scarlet ibis
    Yellow-billed teal
    Silver teal
    Black bellied whistling duck
    Southern lapwing
    Southern screamer
    Striated caracara
    Ringed teal
    Turkey vulture
    Western cattle egret
    White-faced whistling duck

    Blue spiny lizard
    Eyelash viper
    Graham's anole
    Hispaniolan rhinoceros iguana
    Jamaican boa
    Morelet's crocodile
    Utila spinytail iguana

    Blue poison dart frog
    Spiny-headed tree frog
    Mexican leaf frog

    Meanwhile, RZSS has the following (excluding previously mentioned primates):
    Azara's agouti
    Giant anteater
    Southern pudu
    Southern three-banded armadillo
    Vicuna
    Yucatan margay

    Blue and yellow macaw
    Chilean flamingo
    Red-fronted macaw
    Striated caracara
    Turkey vulture

    Argentine black and white tegu

    (and rockhopper and gentoo penguins if one really is a pedant)

    But this yields quite a stark contrast -
    Cotswold have 9 species of mammal, RZSS have only 6
    Cotswold have 25 species of bird, RZSS only have a rather shocking 5 (7 with the penguins)
    Cotswold have 7 species of reptile, RZSS only have one
    And Cotswold have 3 species of amphibian, RZSS have none.

    Which, when added up, yields, in terms of South American species:

    Cotswold 44, RZSS 12.
     
  8. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Cotswold South American exhibits:

    Blue-throated piping-guan:

    [​IMG]

    Tapir and Capybara:

    [​IMG]

    Southern tamandua and armadillo outdoors:

    [​IMG]

    Giant anteater

    [​IMG]

    Chilean flamingo breeding group + Chiloe wigeon:

    [​IMG]

    Burrowing owl:

    [​IMG]

    Humboldt penguin:

    [​IMG]

    Turkey vulture:

    [​IMG]

    All in all, Cotswold WP's exhibits for South American animals range from average to excellent, with a great range and number of species.
     
  9. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    RZSS South American exhibits:

    Azara's agouti:

    [​IMG]

    Giant anteater:

    [​IMG]

    Vicuna (no rhea anymore afaik):

    [​IMG]

    The margay exhibit is quite lush and adequate for the species overall.

    Vicuna at HWP:

    [​IMG]

    There is more to the exhibit than this, just the best pic I could really find.

    Overally, RZSS's South American exhibits are generally of a consistently good quality, with some outstanding ones, but for me they are too few and far between, with only 12 species from the continent represented in the entirety of both zoos.

    Will post a sort of summary next, plus a review of conservation efforts.
     
  10. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    In Situ Conservation efforts

    RZSS:
    Budongo Trail Conservation Station: RZSS financed the construction of this conservation station in Uganda. The station conducts research as well as on the ground work to help the 700 chimpanzees living in the nearby forest.
    Anteater Highway project: The project is coordinated my multiple zoos and aims to relocate anteaters to safer areas where their habitat is not criss-crossed by highways where roadkills could take place.
    Giant armadillo conservation: A large scale, long term research study into the behaviour of Giant armadillos allowing us to know more about the species and hence making its conservation easier.

    Cotswold WP:
    Sifaka conservation: The project aims to protect sifakas in the fragmented forests in Madagascar in which they still hold on. It attempts to manage very small and fragmented family groups across the island in metapopulations - the zoo has provided the project with equipment as well as funding.
    Project Bamboo Lemur: The zoo has been heavily invested in this important project since its inception. The project observes in many cases unique behaviour in these little known species and uses this data to help preserve them in the wild.
    World Parrot Trust: Heavily involved with the World Parrot Trust, an association dedicated to saving parrots and conducting research on them across the world, including in South American rainforests.
    Falklands conservation: Also involved in the conservation of penguins and seabirds in the Falklands, where their populations are threatened by a number of different factors.
    Project Utila Iguana: Also heavily invested into a project to save the Utila iguana on its remote Honduran island. The species is critically endangered and the project aims to bring it back from the brink.

    Overall, in terms of conservation, I would not underestimate Cotswold WP's contribution to conservation in these categories, and they might even outweigh RZSS's admirable work in Uganda in particular.

    All in all, I think Cotswold actually has the edge. A solid primates section with some nice exhibits, a very strong South American area with a glimmering species list and some key conservation efforts around the globe. Meanwhile, RZSS, while still strong, perhaps slightly outperforms Cotswold in primates, though this category is still close-fought, and is nowhere near their level in terms of South America.

    In conclusion, I think I will buck the trend a bit by voting for Cotswold, and would urge those who have voted in favour of RZSS, in particular the 4-1 votes, to rethink based on everything that has been put forward, as based on what I have seen, there is little to no grounds for voting so starkly, especially given Cotswold's dominance in South American fauna.
     
  11. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    Except you explicitly say you are choosing not to count primates in your South America total ;) which, given the fact one of the best exhibits in Edinburgh is a South American primate exhibit, and their other exhibits for New World primates are also excellent, is a major omission. It literally more than halves their mammal total!

    Posts defending Edinburgh and detailing what you missed anon :p
     
  12. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Well yes, but surely we are not counting the South American primates twice! Furthermore, if you include the South American primates for Edinburgh, the same must be done for Cotswold.
    But if you really want to do that, then the adjusted totals for South American mammals are:

    Cotswold: 15, RZSS 14 - not a big difference and certainly won't be affecting my vote.
    It'll be interesting to see your justification for such a stark vote though :)
     
  13. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    As I already intimated, sheer quality of some of the relevant exhibits compared to CWP - although Edinburgh has poor exhibits as noted (the monkey house for instance) it also has a large number of significantly better exhibits than anything Cotswold has to offer in either category.

    But I'll go over things properly later, after I finish work :) and possibly reassess the magnitude of the scoring depending on how I feel in weighing the matter.
     
  14. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    So, first things first; the Living Links mixed exhibit for Brown Capuchin and Common Squirrel Monkey which @amur leopard more or less skated over in his summary of what RZSS has to offer as regards the category "PRIMATES" is concerned - and entirely omitted in his summary of what the organisation has in its favour as far as "SOUTH/CENTRAL AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN" is concerned - is without a doubt the best exhibit for the two species I have seen anywhere (and, as I will discuss anon, the Budongo Trail exhibit complex for chimpanzees is by far the best for *that* species in the UK).

    Moreover, it is not merely a mixed enclosure, but an active research centre and field facility for the study of primate behaviour and social dynamics, which has a separate website devoted to the work/research performed there:

    Living links

    This research is performed by a collaboration between St Andrews University, RZSS and the Scottish Primate Research Group - with research also taking place within the Budongo Trail facility.

    The following is the list of research papers published by this team - I shall highlight those most specifically relevant to Living Links and/or Budongo Trail in bold:


    Along with the direct involvement which RZSS and the research group have with the Budongo Conservation Field Station in Uganda - and even if one disregards for a moment any other conservation involvement which RZSS has with primates and the geographic category at hand - this represents conservation work and research at a significantly higher level of impact and value to that found at Cotswold Wildlife Park. Once one takes into account the other relevant conservation projects at RZSS, and the quality of these exhibits and other relevant exhibits elsewhere in the two RZSS collections - of which I will speak more anon - it is clear that this is a case where quality far overcomes mere quantity.

    I'll go over the actual exhibits (complete with rather more photos than the cherry-picked ones presented by @amur leopard ) in the next post.
     
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  15. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    I had no idea that Edinburgh keep their buffy headed capuchins with their brown capuchins, are some of these animals non-breeders?

    Because it doesn't sound like a very sensible setup to me in terms of avoiding hybridization from occurring.
     
  16. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    They aren't mixed - the Buffy-headed Capuchins are held elsewhere in the zoo.
     
  17. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    Ah I see, I'm really glad that they aren't.
     
  18. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    Interesting comments indeed @amur leopard.

    I'm going to stick to my vote for RZSS (I think them having the buffy headed capuchin is a decisive factor for me) but with your comments you did make me consider shifting my vote to CWP based on their conservation output and overall aesthetics of park.

    Incidentally @TeaLovingDave didn't both of these zoos once have purple faced langurs and wasn't it down to Edinburgh and a studbook keeper there that CWP eventually got rid of theirs ?
     
  19. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    LIVING LINKS (at Edinburgh Zoo)

    As noted above, this is by far the best exhibit for Common Squirrel Monkey and Brown Capuchin I have seen at any zoo - and at over 2300 m² it is certainly the largest, too.

    upload_2020-12-22_0-17-33.png

    It comprises a pair of sizeable mixed outdoor exhibits, with two spacious and high indoor exhibits - one for each species - feeding each outdoor enclosure and a central research pod connecting the two halves of the complex. The following images should held explain the layout of the exhibit complex, along with the reason for this design:

    P1310921.JPG

    DSCF5839.JPG

    P1310920.JPG


    As already noted, the outdoor and indoor exhibits are spacious, provide plenty of climbing opportunity for the inhabitants, and the outdoor exhibits are well-vegetated:

    P1310919.JPG

    P1310916.JPG

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    P1310925.JPG

    As can be seen, the exhibit complex is well-signposted with educational information - along with information on the research work taking place within the complex, and more general zoological information on the species held, there is also a large amount of information provided on subjects such as the group dynamics, hierarchy and family connections between the individual animals within the two mixed-species groups:

    P1310922.JPG

    P1310923.JPG
     
  20. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    Budongo Trail (at Edinburgh Zoo)

    As I previously noted, this is certainly the best chimpanzee exhibit in the UK - and puts up a bloody good fight for the European title too - with a massive outdoor exhibit (complete with a truly ridiculous amount of climbing material, poles, ropes and vegetation) supplemented by a complex of on-and-offshow indoor enclosures connected by tunnels which honeycomb the interor of the Budongo building - sometimes passing overhead within the public viewing areas. In total the exhibit covers a total of around 3,250 m², but given the amount of height present within both the indoor and outdoor enclosures the inhabitants have access to significantly more space:

    upload_2020-12-22_0-59-23.png

    Unfortunately for the purposes of demonstration - but a good thing in terms of the welfare of the inhabitants - the dozen or so interior exhibits are somewhat dimly lit, in order to better replicate the gloom of the thick rainforest canopy, and as such those few images of these exhibits are somewhat poor - however it should still be apparent that they are spacious, provide a lot of climbing opportunity, and have a great deal of vertical space:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As already noted, the outdoor enclosure is even better:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]