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Discussion in 'Canada' started by TZFan, 27 Dec 2015.

  1. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  2. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  3. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  4. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  5. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  6. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  7. TZFan

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  8. TZFan

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    The peacocks are back out on display after the winter being kept inside.

    Mar 28th mule deer, Douglas, had to be put down.

    And a red river hog piglet was born last week.
     
  9. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    The mother is very heavily plucked. Just like Parrots, this is indicative of stress which may in turn affect her milk supply and so the baby. Similar happened with an experienced but stressed mother at Twycross zoo UK a few years ago- the baby was fading despite her continued strong maternal care and it was only saved by being taken away for handrearing. By the time her next was born, a better group composition gave her a more relaxed environment, she had stopped plucking her hair entirely and this baby is growing up fine in their group.
     
  10. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  11. TZFan

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  12. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Another rather bald(hair-plucked) Gorilla here, like the mother of the baby. Something in their environment must be causing them stress I think?
     
  13. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    From photos I have seen all of the females seem to look that way. Even 7 year old Yewande isn't as furry. The male Kakinga though has plenty of fur. Kakinga does have older sons Ntondo, Mbundi, Nsabi, Jawara, and Zwalani who are all very impressive looking silverbacks yet his oldest daughter Barika is a little more sparse on the fur again but not bald. Barika's more recent photos at Sedgwick County Zoo though show more fur than in older pictures of her in Calgary.
     
  14. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Gorilla, Zuri, is making small improvements. She has been downgraded from critical condition to serious but stable.

    In other gorilla related news... help name the baby. Choices are Kimani, Tulia or Maisha.

    Name our western lowland gorilla baby | Calgary Zoo

    Also the zoo is offering free admission to all of those displaced by the wildfire in Fort McMurry. Nice to see the zoo giving back when so many gave to the zoo itself in its time of need during the flood. A free trip to the zoo might not seem like much but a day to just relax and take your mind off all of your troubles and celebrate your family being safe and together might really lift some spirits. The offer is good until June 30.
     
  15. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  16. TZFan

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  17. Hyak_II

    Hyak_II Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Sadly the zoo's 37 year old Silverback Kakinga has passed away.

    Passing of a Patriarch | Calgary Zoo - Blog

    This now leaves the zoo with an entirely female group, consisting of teenage females Zuri, Kioja, and Dossi, along with juvenile Yewande and Kioja's infant daughter. While I am certain the zoo will keep the group as it is for the next few years while the infant matures, it will be interesting to see which new silverback is selected when the time comes. Sadiki and Nassir of the Toronto zoo will both be of the age to start with their own groups and unrelated to all the resident females, perhaps one of them will be Calgary bound?
     
  18. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Oh that's rough for the troop. He has been their stable force through a rough couple of months.

    When selecting a new male one must also remember not only the new baby but possibility that Dossi is pregnant too as she had a breeding rec too.

    There are 4 Canadian contenders.

    First off as you mentioned... Sadiki. In a few years yes Sadiki could be a reasonable choice. He is only 11 now and he may still be a little immature still by the time they are ready. Nassir would not really be a choice as he is only 6 now. No way he will get a troop of his own until much later. I think Sadiki is a reasonable choice but not best because both he and Nassir are a little young.

    So sliding over to Granby there are 3 choices, Nsabi, Jawara and Zwalani. All are sons of Kakinga so would have a similar genetic profile making them good matches for all but Yewande and the baby who wouldnt be staying forever anyway. All are older then Sadiki and ready to lead right now. Plus the removal of one of them would free up space for Sadiki and Nassir when they are ready to move from Toronto.

    Nsabi is oldest at 21 and likely most ready for the mantle of silverback status. Added benefit he belongs to Calgary. They can just recall him. However his mother was captive born though imported from Europe. Donge did have brothers Obus and Utunda who came to North America but neither have surviving issue. She does have full and half siblings in Europe with lots of offspring of their own.

    Next is Jawara who is also old enough to lead a troop at 18. Unlike his older brother his mother Julia is wild born so his genetics may be a superior match. One thing holding that up is that he belongs to Toronto. I'm pretty confident Toronto is eyeing him as their future troop leader so they can retain 100% ownership of all babies born at the zoo.

    Lastly we come to Zwalani. He is a little younger at 16 but in a few years time he would be a prime choice if the zoo will wait for the infant to get older. His maternal background is strong. Mother Tabitha was the only living offspring of wild born parents Barney and Josephine in combination. While Barney has lots of other offspring, Josephine only has two living children who can reproduce right now. Zwalani has a full brother Mbundi who is now in a breeding position but even with more diverse genetics than Jawara he still is the descendant of two very valuable wild caught animals who only had one offspring together making her two sons all the more valuable. He could do but like Jawara he is Toronto owned (however he will not be a contender for Toronto's silverback because his aunt Johari is one of the breeding females).

    Im quite confident it will be one of the Granby males. I would lean towards Nsabi.
     
  19. Hyak_II

    Hyak_II Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Indeed it has been very rough :( However I have high hopes that everything shall work its self out in due time. With Zuri on the mend and the infant doing well, not all hope is lost. That is also a very valid point about Dossi possibly being pregnant too.

    To be honest though, I am of a bit of a differing train of thought when it comes to a new male for Calgary.

    Although all three males at Granby are mature and ready to lead, and also already in Canada, which is nice, I would be surprised about Calgary wanting to bring them on.

    I imagine with the loss of Kakinga, they may make use of this sad event to increase their breeding group with relative ease through the retention of Yewande and Kioja's infant as well (for now let's treat things as if Dossi is not currently pregnant). If this indeed ends up the case, the Granby males may not be ideal. If Toronto is indeed eyeing up Jawara then he is out of the race. On the other hand, Nsabi is related to both young females, and the same for Zwalani as well, but additionally he is related to Zuri too.

    Assuming Calgary waits for 5 more years to get out of the age risk for new silverback rejection for the infant, that would put Sadiki at 16, and although a touch young, he could still probably step up to role of silverback fine, and would be un-related to every female in Calgary. (on a completely selfish note, Nassir is one of my favorite Gorillas, so I would love to see him come to Calgary to take lead eventually, however I realise his age is going against him for this one ;) )

    Now of course, if Calgary does indeed plan to still send off its young females, I could easily see Nsabi coming over to step up as silverback. Ultimately though, who knows, a new male is likely still years away, and they could very well just bring up a new male from the states. I suppose only time will tell!

    Edit: a look through the facebook comments revealed this posted by the zoo:

    " We will look for another male for the group, but it will take some time. Any new gorillas brought to the troop will be recommended by the SSP and be best fit for the group genetics"

    Although hardly a decisive comment, I could see this being in support of the younger females staying.
     
  20. TZFan

    TZFan Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    You are right, its not all doom and gloom at the gorilla exhibit. Just a really rough time for keepers and the troop. They will survive though.

    I like your thoughts on the Granby contenders. First of I totally forgot Zuri is Zwalani's aunt because I'm so Toronto focused. So he is most definitely out. Not even a contender much like young Nassir. So that does bring us back to 3 Canadian contenders.

    I do think its more of a remote chance that Calgary will keep the younger girls though with breeding in mind. Their genetics could easily be represented in the troop by their mothers and a returning half brother. There isn't a great deal of need to keep them. Even if a Granby male did not arrive bringing Kakinga's genetics back it would be a little redundant keeping the daughter with her mother who is already breeding with the male. That's something that rarely seems to happen. Add to that we are talking several years before Yewande can breed and probably a good 10 or more before the baby can as well. Planning for their breeding is probably less of a priority. The adult females are the priority. In that respect Nsabi and Jawara would be fine fits.

    By the way my Jawara theory for Toronto is completely selfish. I have a dream of having the original 7 babies at Toronto represented in the troop so I need Jawara to complete the puzzle. Charles and Josephine would be represented by Johari, Amanda is represnted by Ngozi, Jawara coming in as silverback is Julia. Then it gets tricky because I have to recall Catherine from Little Rock to get Caroline and Barney but shes a non breeder with no siblings or offspring. And last piece of the puzzle if I must destroy the Little Rock group is to bring back Sekani to represent Samantha and Charles again or go to her daughter Adelina. Gotta say honestly when their male died a little part of me wanted to see Catherine, Sekani and Adelina return to Toronto and for Charles and Jo to be retired. Realistically I can have Johari, Ngozi, probably Jawara and maybe in the future Adelina. One can dream.

    You are right at 16 depending on how Sadiki matures he could be a good match. Some males can handle a troop at that age. Others don't know how to lead and it ends in trouble. Depends on his females too. If they can put him in his place as a group then being a little immature wont hurt. But I don't think they will be waiting 5 years. In North Carolina a new male was brought in when their two young males were just about 3 and they had only been without their father for a year... in that case though the zoo was going to lose its gorillas before a male was selected so that might have delayed things. They would probably wait a minimum of two years from the birth of the youngest member of the troop be it the current baby or one Dossi could be carrying. Unless they decide to bring in an older male from the US who has been a father and might be arriving with a mate and offspring already. How many gorilla fathers accept a new baby in their troop from surrogacy? Off the top of my head in Cincinnati Jomo accepted Gladys and in Columbus Oliver accepted Kamina. In Toronto Charles accepted back his and Josephine's hand reared offspring, Jomo and Johari. Though other young who they tried to integrate didn't make the cut, Zuri, Patrick, and even his son Jabari but those where whole troop rejections of much older infants. A placid accepting male probably wouldn't mind too much but it would be a calculated risk.

    I think because of genetics... Nsabi is a strong choice as the only living relative of Donge... But he is also a great match in terms of transport. No paper work to go across an international border. Lower cost to probably get him across Canada then most places in the US. It frees up critical bachelor space in Canada for Toronto's boys who if there were not space would have to go across the border with double the paper work and head aches. The SSP considers not just genetics but logistics. There are lots of recs made by SSPs when it comes to Canadian zoos which are more about logistics then genetics. In this case the genetics work well. And yes two gorillas will have to go south but fitting Yewande into a troop when she is ready to breed will be easier than trying to match bachelor males. And the ssp wont even be considering the baby's long term future for at least a decade. A lot could happen in that time. Frankly the baby could go through three silverbacks since at Nsabi would be 31 by the time that decision is made and male silverbacks start to die off in their 30s.

    Right now its too soon to say what will happen. Kakinga just died. Zuri is still in serious condition and just starting to come around. The baby is still very small and Kioja is a first time mom. The loss of Kakinga could stress her to the point she isn't able to or want to care for the baby. And Dossi could potentially be expecting herself... they might not even know if she is yet. Too much is in flux now to even consider asking the SSP to look into replacing him. Once the group has stabilized and every one is healthy they will begin to really ask those questions.