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Discussion in 'Uganda' started by Arizona Docent, 20 Mar 2021.

  1. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    CTC Conservation Center was started in 2015 by Thomas Price (originally from Switzerland). It is an education and breeding center with mostly Ugandan animals, notably a large collection of African golden cats. The website is still in development (links beyond the home page do not work as of this posting in March 2021): Welcome to CTC Conservation Center - wildlife.ug

    Here is an informative interview on Youtube, which states the goal is to open to the public by summer 2021: Let's Talk Tourism Episode 1: Captive Breeding & Conservation - YouTube
     
  2. twilighter

    twilighter Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Waw, waw, waw! Thank you very much for those links @Arizona Docent ! There is no peace in ZooChat :)
     
    Last edited: 20 Mar 2021
  3. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

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    I really don't know why anyone on Zoochat would be lauding an establishment owned by someone who is actively involved in wildlife smuggling. Granted that @Arizona Docent may not be specifically aware of this, although he presumably has seen the photos of the smuggled Galapagos iguanas in the Zoochat gallery for this so-called "conservation center", but as someone who has bemoaned the lack of money AZA zoos spend on conservation one would hope that he wouldn't support this place simply because it has African Golden Cats.

    Thomas Price was convicted in New Zealand in 2010 on wildlife smuggling (of NZ geckos), along with his friend Manfred Bachmann who was himself later caught in 2015 trying to smuggle Galapagos iguanas through Ecuador to Uganda.
     
  4. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know about this guy or his connections to illegal animal trafficking networks.

    The African golden cats are without a doubt beautiful and it is interesting to see pictures of this species taken in this place but the owner himself seems to be a very shady character.

    Very ironic how he has called it / rebranded it a "conservation center".
     
    Last edited: 20 Mar 2021
  5. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I am unaware of the owner's history and in fact had never heard of him until yesterday when I saw the video I posted above.
     
  6. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    This is all so double so here some of my thoughts about this :
    if we look at the history of zoos we have to think how animals come into these places we like so much ! In the late 1800s - early 1900s hardly ( if any ) laws were existing to protect animals so in fact everybody who wanted to have a surtain species and had the money for it, could go out in the wild and catch what he wanted.
    Later laws to protect a number of species came in action which is of course a very good thing but if zoos with a big name ( and also smaller zoos ) needed protected animals there were mostly ways in which they could get them ( with special licences, as a gift from country to country ( think of Giant pandas, Komodo dragons, Tuatara's ) or confiscated animals ).
    In the meantime the trade of wild animals which weren't protected flourished and zoos did have normaly no problems to obtain animals from dealers or private collectors.
    Even obvious smuggled animals were still obtained in the 1970s - 1980s because otherwhile zoos ( and private breeders ) couldn't show Fijian banded iguanas and Spix's macaws to name just 2.
    Private collectors CAN play an important role in conservation nowadays and yes, there are persons with a questionable ( criminal ) background but I guess in every layer of the present society you will find such people ( politicians are a good example ! ) but if their work can be changed into something good, we should to have accept this.
    Best example here again the Spix's macaw : a rich Philippine collector obtained some illegal, started to breed them, sold them to an even wealthier sheikh and then came into the hand of a private conservation center from which its said that they also have criminal backgrounds. Evenso, ACTP did very well with the Spix's macaws and a few large public collections didn't had problems to get birds and do business with this 'dubious' center !
    Another example: a UK-based private collector is almosed adored because he has Marbled cats but these animals must have come from somewhere ( hardly any are bred so I assume they were wild-caught ). However, because these animals are so rare and a lot of zoo-loving people want to see the species, hardly anybody is asking about the orgin of these animals !?
    I agree 100% with @Chlidonias that smuggling geckos from New Zealand and Iguanas from the Galapagos isn't the right way to start breeding-programms but on the other side, as long as money rules the world, such things will occure. And if such animals come into the hands of the right people ( not necessary zoos ! ) they can become important for breeding-programms !
    I just hope CTC Conservation Center will leave its "black" past behind itself and become a Conservation Center like other "legal" centers and cooperate with zoos and wildlife societies - which they are already doing if we should believe the video ( re-introduction of African wild dogs ).
    Also it would be intresting to follow how they will do with the African wild cats and who knows, maybe some day some Ugandan bred African golden cats will turn-up in some European or American zoo.
     
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  7. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    They *are* captive-bred and came from Al-Bustan, which has bred the species a number of times now.
     
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  8. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

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    Wow. Someone actually is trying to justify this!

    This isn't "the past" - it is the current state. Galapagos iguanas are being traded through this guy in the present. They have been exported from Uganda to Japan and Thailand over several years in 2017, 2018 and 2019 - and these are just the ones which can be tracked through CITES because they are "captive-bred" even though they are adults.
     
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  9. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Didn't know that and that's realy great ! ( but Al-Bustan also had to get their breeding aninmals from 'somewhere' ;) ).
     
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  10. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

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    Plus, even if they were wild-caught, there is a big difference between legal trade and smuggling.
     
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  11. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Didn't know this either but as I said : money rules the world and realy a pitty that a center which calls itself a "Conservation Center" still is involved in the illegal trade :( !
     
  12. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I'm not trying to justify this, I'm saying thing like this happen and I also said that I agree with you that smuggling isn't the way to start breeding-programms BUT if animals are confiscated, they should be placed in some kind of breeding-programms.
     
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  13. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    I think the fact that the owner is still apparently deeply involved in the illegal trade is every reason to avoid this place like the plague.

    A very cynical and hypocritical appropriation of the word "conservation" by this guy indeed.
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2021
  14. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Giving him the benefit of the doubt (that he is being honest in the video), all of the golden cats were legally taken from unprotected areas with permits from Uganda Wildlife Authority. This is not meant to justify other activities such as smuggling Galapagos iguanas (which I know nothing about), I am just making a point about the golden cats, which is the main point of interest so far on ZooChat (and certainly my primary interest).
     
  15. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    As you say and acknowledge though this doesn't and shouldn't absolve Price of his past crimes as an illegal wildlife trafficker.

    I think that is the price (pun intended) that he should have to pay in terms of credibility.
     
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  16. TinoPup

    TinoPup Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    I would think the "conservation" label would go out the window upon seeing the white lions they have all over their facebook, along with their offering of "lion walks". :(
     
  17. DDcorvus

    DDcorvus Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    The problem is that the owner is a known and convicted smuggler, whose choice of location seems to be at least partially motivated by avoiding scrutiny on his operations. Of course it is up to the Ugandan government to enforce their environmental legislation, but for me it raises several red flags that his facility acquire 11 individuals of a species that might only be kept at one other facility in the world. I understand the wish to see the species, but there are major questions here.
     
  18. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe this "conservation center" is a front for continuation of illegal trafficking operations? Is it a calculated PR attempt to salvage a reputation ruined by his trafficking convictions ? or is it instead just a shrewd move to make money from tourism ?
     
  19. DDcorvus

    DDcorvus Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    What I see is someone convicted of wildlife trafficking, still moving reptiles across international borders that shouldn't be moving across international borders as there is no legal founding population in captivity and there is no captive breeding on-going that would be able to supply captive bred animals. Neither has the range country allowed the taking of animals or issued an export permit. That person is based in a country with an authoritarian regime that is listed by Transparency international as one of the most corrupt countries in the world. And his facility in that country has 11 individuals of a species that is not kept anywhere else except one possible animal in West Africa. This raises some serious questions for me. In this case I would expect extra scrutiny instead of giving benefit of the doubt.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2021
  20. Onychorhynchus coronatus

    Onychorhynchus coronatus Well-Known Member

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    Well I agree and I think that an extra level scrutiny and actually strong criticism is warranted in this case too.

    But I do wonder what the ultimate purpose / purposes of his "conservation center" is and particularly considering the money he has poured into it which suggests that it is a long-term project of his and that he feels fairly secure in the country.

    As you say Uganda is a suitable base of operations for someone with both a shady background and enough money to grease the palms of every discerning and corrupt politicians and law enforcement who will invariably pry into his business and try to get a slice of the pie.

    The brazenness by which he goes on social media and states that conservation is at the center of what his organization does tells me that he is trying to rehabilitate his reputation with PR.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2021