firstly, let me just say, i have an amazing ability to get this topic going again don't i? i mean it always get a thread running hot, usually with people arguing against my beliefs, but thats okay..... jason, you know i'm not anti-zoo, or a radical animal rights advocate. and i don't believe that i live a life that is hypocritical of my values. the reason i brought up my experiences with seeing asian elephants in the wild was because i was trying to illustrate that a small city zoo exhibit, not only in my opinion didn't provide for its inhabitants, it was a pretty boring and uninspiring way for us to view them as well. of course the thrill of seeing animals in the wild is always going to beat any zoo experiance a billion to one. nonetheless, whilst i have travelled through much of the world chasing that thrill - i still visit the zoo when i'm home. i suppose there are two points that i have been trying to make. firstly, if you look at the facts and figures the anti-elephants campaigners are right. it plan does very little for conservation considering how much money has been invested into it. you can't deny that. and secondly, that the issue illustrates how lost zoos have found themselves once more. either public attitudes have changed faster than the zoos can keep up or zoos have been misreading them for a very long time. i've been frustrated by this whole issue, because in the media it has turned into a "elephants don't belong in zoos argument" when for me, the issue was "elephants don't belong in that zoo". i bet there are plenty of melbourne and taronga employees who probably (albeit secretly) agree.. so rather than defend the zoos, simply because i enjoy going there and simply because the selfish side of me too wants to see those elephants with the convenience of them being just round the corner versus a 40 minute drive, i figured i would speak my mind here. i would argue that you lot, my fellow forum members, have a better understanding of zoo politics, policies, conservation, animal behaviour and needs than most. it is little supprise some of you are even aspiring zookeepers and i have no doubt you will make very good ones. so i figured if there is anyone who will understand my argument, its you. but more importantly, i want the people who work at the zoo to know why i (and the idea was hopefully you guys too) am so dissapointed. and incase you haven't realised this already guys.... ....they read this forum.
Patrick I know you are not a 'rabid' anti zoo person, and in fact I agree with nearly everything you say about elephants. In th ened, if the zoos were truelly serious about elephant conservation they would have supported something like the proposed elephants sanctuary in Victoria and sent all their elephants there (including the to be imported animals). Though it is a circus, Barnam and baileys in the US have an amazingly succesful breeding program for elephants ( check out their website). So does the Howletts zoo in the UK. The reason for this I think is that there is plenty of room and PLENTY of elephants. Both places have large herds, not just 5 or 6 animals.
Ps I was referring to the woman I know not living to her values. And finally I noticed in the last Zoo news from Taronga that they mentioned two of the female elephants were just the right age to start breeding. Yet their male is just 5 years old. Sort of like breeding a twelve year old boy with 20 year old women. I'm not even sure if a 5 year old male elephant is physically able to breed yet. So it will be several years yet before those female elephants have calves. Unless the zoo intends to try artificial insemmination.
Also the African lion safari in Canada has a huge herd of Asian Elephants who have had huge sucess (in a cold climate) with Another three babies born a few weeks ago, the number of elephants seems to be very important as you say Jay, I have seen the website for the Barnam & Baileys breeding centre and WOW what a great job they are doing there, I wish we had something like this in oz, I think they opened the centre with 27 animals, wow. Anyone who is interested in captive elephant breeding should really have a look at this site.
i reackon taronga will do A.I on these animals, like the 2 old enough to breed, as guy cooper (director ceo, taronga wpz) said he hopes to have the first calf "on the ground' 3 yrs after arrival!
oh, don't get me started again jay! the age discrepencies in tarongas animals is something i have brought up on the forum before. lets not forget taronga never even intended on acquiring a male in the first place, somehow they figured they could have a breeding program without one so at least they have since realised that you need girl elephants and boy elephants to make baby elephants!!!
patrick, Thanx for the explanations. I really do feel that the argument should be taken to the zoo authorities to make their exhibits bigger and better. I am rather puzzled that they do not seem to have taken on advice from the region I come from (If you need more info on breeding elephants in Europe, please do not hesitate to ask). We have a fully functional EEP for Asians (Rotterdam Zoo as coordinator) and one developping for Africans (Ramat-Gan Zoo as coordinator). Both advocate large facilities with socially and behaviorally adept conditions for elephants. Zoos that wish to participate in the EEP's need to meet certain basic criteria for exhibits, group make-up and breeding prospects. If not they are simply not accepted into the group. Also research into elephants is becoming an big issue here. Health concerns like foot problems, anesthesia + restraining chutes, AI, hormone levels monitoring in reproductive or potentially so cows and elephant feeds are all investigated. This has created a safe environment for zoo populations to start prospering - even while the Asian population was ageing - and is now close to bringing the Asian population to break even point. Increase over imports. Imports are now made available when zoos have breeding facilities going and can accomodate breeding groups with bulls. I sincerely hope that this example may serve the Australian situation. Personally, I was also puzzled why Taronga sent their bull of 20-30 years (prime breeding age if you ask me) was transferred to WPZ. Perhaps the exhibit at WPZ may be upgraded and the females of breeding age brought up to WPZ (while keeping a minor herd at Taronga???).
Yes Jelle, Thats a real good idea, take the new females out from Taronga zoo to Dubbo at least for breeding with The mature bull (heman) and move the new younger bull out to Western plains zoo to stay permantly (at least this gives them a choise of males) which has to be better with so much more room there and one less at Taronga. Maybe take the two Auckland zoo females out to dubbo as well for a larger herd. I think the days of zoos keeping small numbers of elephants are close to coming to an end, as you have pointed out the best way is to focus on large breeding herds, since some American zoos and zoos in Europe have done this things have really made a positive change, from what I have seen in zoos overseas they should only be kept in open range type zoos and not city zoos.
HAy guys heman aint a mature elephant, hes a very mature elephants, hes bloody 1 of the oldest males in captivity, hes nearly 50. and he doesnt look the best at the monet , io have seen zukis newest pics of him and hes loosing weight- signs of old age.
I have been watching the debate about captive elephants in oz and as far as I can see the major problem seems to be "to much old thinking" by our zoo leaders, as we have seen with many other overseas zoos who now have moved their elephants out of the city zoos eg, London zoo is just one of them, to form breeding groups in open range type of zoos, the buck stops with our zoo leaders and they are lagging FAR behind TODAYS thinking, at the current rate of thinking they are being left WAY behind, so maybe the question is " can we play catch up" and how long will it take?, If we dont, we are going nowhere in a hurry so WAKE UP zoo leaders and have a good look at the zoos who are breeding them and keeping them in large breeding centres, Wake up. And please some one tell me what Auckland zoo is doing with their two females? why cant they send them to oz have have a real go at breeding them before its to late?. Lets have a real go at this and do it right NOW.
see? i knew you guys felt the same at heart. i just figure that the opposition to the import has become such a big problem for the zoo's now, that they might have to start acknowledging that they made a mistake - and a very bloody costly one at that. as mark said - we where claiming to be leading an example in elephant care, yet in actual fact we were lagging behind. and might i say, what a shame that is too. melbournes facilities from a management point of view really are excellent. the barn is massive, and they have paid attention to details that seem lacking in the taronga barn, such as making sure it has huge amounts of natural light. the melbourne barn is actually a really nice big airy open space. apparently bong-su's head almost scraped along the roof of the old one and the keepers always complained of itbeing too dark and dingy so with the new one super high ceilings and lots of skylights seemed a must. climate control, rubber heated floors and features such as lots of keeper safety features (elephants can have either direct or protected contact) are all there. outside, each of the three paddocks feature gates allowing access to the other two. one paddock with a small pool and its ajoining seperate "bull barn" is reserved primarily for bong-su. another features a deep water swimming pool large enough for all the elephants to submerge themselves at once. the largest paddock has a mud wallow. all outdoor spaces feature sand piles, which the elephants love lying down and sleeping in, scratch posts in the form of dead trees mounted on underground tires to that the move when you push them and plenty of toys and spare logs etc. the zoo made a point of making giving the elephants varying terrain, figuring the walk up and down the hills is good excercise. the female elephant is walked around the zoo during opening hours and also performs demonstrations, (which are based on natural behavious) where she moves logs around and does stretches etc.. this bagan some years ago as part of the zoos program to get keppah to loose weight and get fit - which has been a success. the zookeepers tell me that both elephants, who came to the zoo as babies from malaysia some 20-something years ago, are actually really quite docile animals. even bong-su is apparently very calm for a bull - though the zoo don't risk any real direct contact. anyhow, my point is that the facilities and design of the melbourne enclosure are fantastic. i just wish they had access to a 5-10 acre paddock as well. traongas facilties, from what i have seen aren't even that great. relying on having to walk the female elephants to the bull paddock is not exactly a smart move. what if they find that one of the females becomes unsafe to handle? the zoo will not be able to introduce her to the bull. likewise the bull will not be able to enjoy the facilities of the females for a change of environment. at melbourne suey (BS) can have access to all the same stuff, and without having to be in the same enclosure as the females if need be. oh well....
Yes I do agree with most of what you do say Pat I only want our zoos to be outstanding in every way, lets have the BEST exhibits, lets give them the BEST care, we have heaps of room (great), we have heaps of sunshine compard to northern zoos (great), we can grow anything in this land (great). So just maybe as most of our zoos are (Goverment zoos) which I think could be a big part of the problem, as most of us are aware all levels of Goverment from local, state and federal are mostly pen pushers, this could mean that most of the people in this area are not real ZOO PEOPLE without a real understanding and a REAL passion for this sort of undertaking, a case in point is the Indian rhino exhibit at the Western plains zoo where the keepers suggestions and veiws were ignored and now some what later down the track are now upgrading this exhibit to what it should have been at the start. I say LETS LIFT OUR GAME OR get someone who CAN DO IT RIGHT, lets all look at the outstanding elephant breeding centres in North America and Europe and see what they ARE DOING RIGHT, If the Yanks the poms and the Euros can do it then WHY aren't we doing it too, I am sure we can, well i hope so. So come on Guys lets show the world WE CAN DO it and do it well. But please someone ( maybe Nigel) hes our man in NZ tell us Auckland zoo is not just going to let their two females elephants past into old age with out a real breeding attempt. I ask you PLEASE as fellow members of Zoobeat to look at the Elephant Breeding centre which is named in my last port, this is the ONLY way to go.
Please look at, The Ringling Bro's & Barum & Bailey Centre for Elephant Conservation, in Central Florida, USA.
Mark, The zoo environment in Europe dictates a minimum available space to a herd of elephants. This should be the drawing base to go out from. It however is not so that all zoos are open range: plenty of city zoos in Europe do have good elephant facilities or are in the process of upgrading them to standards conducive to elephant social behaviour and breeding. Taronga should probably strive to keep to improve facilities at Taronga and develop the WPZ base as well. I hear that Heman is actually much older at 50? Is this correct? Than he might not be such a good candidate for breeding I am afraid. It would then be better to get a male of 12-18 range to breed from instead (preferably zoos would want to initiate breeding attempts a.s.a.p. Especially since I hear that at least 4-6 females are in prime breeding age groups. Perhaps the TAG within ARAZPA can move this thing forward?????
Someone brought up the subject of allowing the bulls and cows to mingle when they wish, but this is not feasible at Taronga. A zoo in Israel has an excellent and yet very simple method of allowing free will, especially amongst the cows. Sometimes their bulls can get a bit aggressive with the cows and so it was viutal that they could get away from his attentions wghen they wanted. So as the bull was taller. A simple wire across the width of part of the very large enclousre kept him to one section but allowed the smaller cows to have free access. So simple and yet so effective.
Yes Jelle I do know that not all the Europern elephant herds are on open range zoo areas as I have been to a few zoos in that part of the world, but i feel since we do have some huge zoos here such as Western plains zoo, Monarto zoo, Werrbiee zoo and even the Australia zoo that it is better for them living there if we have the space for them so we can give them what we alreadly have. I not sure of the real age of Heman but there would be a few here that do know, If heman is past breeding age then as you say they should be looking for that least one other mature bull two would be better, Perth zoo did import three Asian elephants a few years ago and have since had some matings with them so the is at least one young bull here thats is breeding, I think its wait and see if she is pregant. I have heard that Bong su is furtile so maybe there is some hope with him as well, at least with AI, I agree with you that things here need to happen a.s.a.p, we need to play catch up as we are lagging way behind, if we do really want to breed elephants then we need to look at the zoos getting the best results and do as they do and get on with the job.
heman is around 50 years old. Zoo_Boy could probably confirm his exact age. because of this he is not even considered for the CBP. bong-su (around 32) is very much breeding age and fertile. in fact he is a vital part of melbournes planned breeding program as they are not importing any additional males. one of the cows destined for melbourne however is in her early teens and the zoo is resting all immediate hopes on her. for me the issue of whether there will be elephants at dubbbo and werribee is a given. there will be, because whilst there may be an argumant from the zoos that city institutions can provide for their small elephant herds of five, add just a few sucessful births and suddenly they are looking at housing a herd of seven, eight or more. i don't know how many extra stalls taronga built in their barn but i'de have a guess that like melbourne, they didn't really plan for more than a couple of extra elephants. however, whether that will that see elephants move to the open range exclusively or whether we just end up with them at both is yet to be established.
1. yes pat heman is around 50, giva take 1 or 2 years 2. yes tarngas barn is excaltyly like melbournes, thou from wht i hve seen on tv about melbournes, tarongas aint as good 3. bong-su, is the vital breeding animal for melbourne, 4.mek-kapah, was deemed infertile by reproductive experts 5. dubbo will never get more elphants i have been told numerous times, at the begining of thsi asian saga, it was taked about very seriously getting more africans, but wont happen, the only eles to come to austrlai now ill eb asian has any one forgotten about perths eles, they have a male and 3 females, fantastic story, the male has just matured and he is starting to mate oldest female, i beleive perth may even have the first calf 'on the ground'
To bad heman is over 50, he was a great looking bull in his day, Glad to hear that bong su is fertile great news.in regards to Perth zoos Asian elephants i saw them in 2000 and spoke to their keepers from what I was told the older female they had there alreadly is to old for breeding!, of the other two females which came to Aust with the young bull only one of them is going to be bred as the other has heath problems, so at the end of the day they only have one female who can breed. Another thing I was told at Perth zoo was the male was being trained to enter a steel crate because he was being shipped of to Fort Worth in Texas in the USA, (have photos) someone in charge said they did not want to breed them, looks like they had a change of heart. very luckly for us, Phew!!!!.
Zoo_Boy, when i was talking about elephants at dubbo it was in context of the asians that may or may not be imported having to eventually be transported there from taronga. i wasn't really thinking about the prospect of western plains importing any just for themselves (african or otherwise). the controversy here in australia has sparked a similar reaction in thailand and now, although in our country all legal appeals and attempts to stop the import have been exhausted, there is a movement starting in thailand now to stop them exporting the animals. it was also a condition made by the supreme court, that if there was a feeling that taronga zoo was not providing for the animals, that they would be forced to move them to dubbo. what i was essentially saying was that even if this import is allowed, i believe that the zoos will be forced, for one or more reasons to move them to an open range zoo within less than 10 years.
