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Domestic breed that is a unique species/ subspecies in its own right?

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by SHAVINGTONZOO, 26 Sep 2021.

  1. SHAVINGTONZOO

    SHAVINGTONZOO Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    {Note from mods - this thread split from here: Jimmy's Farm News 2021 [Jimmy's Farm & Wildlife Park]}



    Genuine question - can you give an example of a domestic breed that is a unique species/ subspecies in its own right?
     
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  2. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    The current line of thinking tends to assign Dingo/NGSD distinct status, as Canis dingo / C. lupus dingo appears to be derived from a different (and now-extinct) population of wolves to both the various extant wild wolf species of southern Asia *and* the progenitors of domestic dogs.
     
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  3. csartie

    csartie Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    No individual breeds are at ssp/sp level as far as I know but several domesticated animals are -- ie domesticated cats, dogs, sheep, goats etc are all at subspecies or species level according to ITIS.
     
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  4. Jennings

    Jennings Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Llamas and Alpacas, Domestic Dogs and Cats, and Goldfish spring to mind as domestic taxa which count as species in their own right. I am unaware of any domestic breeds which are as yet classified as subspecies of their own species, but surely their comes a point at which two breeds of the same domesticated species are so dissimilar as to merit their informal classification as such in that they would be unable to interbreed. I mean, a Leonburger probably could successfully impregnate a Chihuahua, but the resulting offspring would like as not be unviable in that the mother would be unable to safely carry them to term.
     
  5. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    See my remarks upthread regarding Canis dingo.
     
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  6. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    If a St Bernard tried to impregnate a chihuahua, I doubt if the latter would give birth.
     
  7. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    The Pariah Dog is often regarded as a full subspecies.
     
  8. pangolin12

    pangolin12 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

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    Do zebu, domestic camel, domestic water buffalo, and Gayal count?
     
  9. Azamat Shackleford

    Azamat Shackleford Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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  10. tetrapod

    tetrapod Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I don't think there is any doubt that dingoes and NGSD originated from an early line of domesticated dogs and, if one was was following scientific nomenclature to the word, then both would be classed as Canis familiaris. However due to the uniquely long period of dog domestication, with both canids living wild and that they are genetically 'pure' (well prior to modern feral dogs), then both tend to be classed as separate species.
    Scientific nomenclature was never well designed to deal with domesticated breeds and the difference between species or subspecies is often pretty subjective.
     
  11. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Aren't Domestic Cats usually considered a full species nowadays, too?
     
  12. tetrapod

    tetrapod Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Felis catus as opposed to the wild silvestris. Most domestic forms have their own binomial now. Rabbits are one exception to the rule (same name for both wild and domestic, Oryctolagus cuniculus).
     
  13. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    To be accurate, domestic cats were domesticated from Felis libyca rather than Felis silvestris.

    I suspect the reason for the rabbit exception is the short period of time they have been kept as a domestic animal.
     
  14. tetrapod

    tetrapod Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Depends if you split silvestris into separate species rather than subspecies!
     
  15. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    Which appears to be a very strongly-supported split; if memory serves me correctly the only way to get the genetics to work out if one lumps Afro-Asian Wildcat and Eurasian Wildcat is to also include Sand Cat!
     
  16. Tiger

    Tiger Well-Known Member

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    I think water buffalos, zebu's, prairie dogs and probably several fish species.
     
  17. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Zebus and Domestic Water Buffalo are often split as their own species. Domestic Goldfish are a unique subspecies, but there's no other domestic fish taxa. There's no domestic prairie dogs, given there aren't even captive breeds where did you get that idea?
     
  18. aardvark250

    aardvark250 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    koi: am i a joke to you?
     
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  19. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Koi aren't their own taxon.
     
  20. lowland anoa

    lowland anoa Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Which is correct, as koi carps are simply just a coloured variation of their wild relative; the Amur carp.

    Goldfish? They’ve been bred and captivated so much, that they are basically their own taxon.

    However released goldfish can produce offspring with the wild colour, but only after a few generations, Snake Discovery has done a great video, it’s entitled “Why you shouldn’t release goldfish” or something along the lines
     
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