That is a very old photograph and the original orca pool that later became the 'Seaside Stadium' that housed a pilot whale and dolphins. By 1973 and before the first birth 'Corky' and 'Orky' where living in the main oceanarium tank at Marineland. Which is the large round tank with the seating around it in the below picture; as I mentioned in a previous post it isn't very much smaller and a little deeper than Kamogawa Seaworld's main pool that you mention. The Marineland orca pool pictured actually didn't join any other tank, the other tank you can see is the large aquarium tank that contained sharks, etc. 'Corky' was never moved from this tank when she had the calves although calves were removed when it was felt hand-rearing maybe the only course of action left. I also have posted a picture of one of the animal leaping which confirms this is not the same tank as your original picture. I visited Marineland a couple of years prior to is closure. I spoke to the staff and subsequently meet them at various meeting both in the USA and Europe. To be honest Marineland was in my opinion at the time of my visit one of the best marine parks I had seen from the point of few of animal care. I was allowed access to all areas and staff were very candid and open. Marineland was in fact the first park to train husbandry behaviours were animals were trained to give blood, urine and other samples which stopped the need to drain pools and restrained animals to get these import health parameters. To criticise them many years after an event when these were the first ever captive births of orcas is very unfair. It is interesting to note that Seaworld's zoological director is Brad Andrews who I first met at this time as he was curator at Marineland. With the greatest respect you are making comments regarding this matter based on scanning various site on the internet which may not be actuate. Cetacean Counsins is a very interesting web site but comments regarding the reasons for 'Corky's failure to rearer calves is subjective and not related to any published research. I know that various papers were presented and published regarding this matter in the proceeding of the IMATA etc. I will see if I can find further information on the actual facts. It maybe the case that 'Corky' may never have successfully reared calves but the successes at places like Seaworld demonstrate that this can be successful undertaken. And where do you think a lot of the European and other dolphinaria got their skilled staff from? As an example the director of Marineland in France is English and learned his dolphin husbandry in the UK. Like any other skilled profession there would be nothing to stop any new dolphin facility in the UK hiring from around the world.
Many cetacean species are native to our local seas, but yet we have no facilities to rehabilitate them. Practically all of our native species' have places that they can go if they are ill/stranded/orphaned (wildlife/wildfowl/seal sanctuaries etc), except cetaceans. It seems like there's a bit of a missing link, probably due to the most obvious reason of public opinion. This is a real shame because you hear about all kinds of dolphin and porpoise strandings/confusions and there is always so little that people can do to help. I didn't think orcas were found much in our surrounding seas, except possibly around northern scotland but I doubt there would be much need to rehabilitate many of them. Correct me if i'm wrong though.
Hi, I have found this thread/site via google as I ended up talking about Cuddles today. I have some cinefilm footage of Cuddles at Dudley Zoo somewhere. It never occured to me that anyone may be interested in seeing it (it can't be more than 20 seconds worth) but if you are interested, I will make some effort to find it and get it in a format I can upload to youtube or something. I haven't watched it for a long time, but I must say I find it very sad to watch now. I would think it was filmed in 1972-3.
Hi Rebecca that would be interesting to see I am sure a number of our forum members would like to see that, Thanks
Cuddles arrived in Dudley in May 1971 and died there February 1974, he was due to be moved to Marineland in Nice I believe after being put up for sale. Dudley did not have planning permission when they converted the sea lions pools into the whale and dolphin pools and had to restore them back to their original size. Photos and press cuttings here including the Robinson incident. DUDLEY ZOO - DOLPHINS & WHALES: 1971 - 1974
So, the present-day sealion pools are smaller than when whales and dolphins were kept at Dudley? That explains why I find it hard to imagine a killer whale there, although the photos in that link are hardly of a large pool admittedly.
Yeah, someone said (possibly earlier in this thread) that they took some of the side walls down. What confuses me sometimes is the fact that people are fine with watching Sea lions perform and seeing other cetacean-sized/animals of similar intellectual capacity like gorillas in captivity, but so many people have a "dolphins are special and should never be kept captive" attitude. The media have really screwed it up in the UK, and are close to doing so in other countries. I recently saw a random youtube comment on a seaworld video where someone said "You never hear anything good about Seaworld." -and to me, this proved the point of how the media love to pick apart such establishments by only publicising the bad, more gruesome stories. Ok, rant over. Once I qualify as a zoologist I will sort it all out! hahah. (Dolphins that is, I don't think Orcas would be viable.)
I don't really know much about them, but the marine divers don't sound very qualified to look after cetaceans.... EDIT: Take that back, looking at their website. I just thought the name "divers" was a bit strange. Are they the only organisation that do this?
cuuddles the killer whale at dudley zoo i also went to dudley zoo in 1972, i was only 3 but can still remember, i took my kids there for the first time this week, and couldnt remember where the whale enclosure was, until i read your post, i talked to my mum about it after we had been, and she said yes i always remember that and heard not long after he had been moved, and that the enclosure was far to small, the place has still got the chair lift and that also was one of my few memorys, from a young age, although not working.
You can see the two editions of the books here: Flamingo Park Guide Book Flamingoland only displayed bottlenose dolphins and orca on a long term basis. A young pilot whale was displayed for a short period of time in 1966 and I believe at least one beluga may have been displayed at Cleethropes zoo. Porpoise were no doubt stranded animals. I am not aware of common dolphins ever being displayed.
David Taylor talked about Cuddles in at least one of his zoo vet books (while since I read them... I might look it up sometime in the next few days...). As I remember the story, he used to frequently swim with him, until one day Cuddles pinned him against the side of the pool underwater and might well have drowned him if someone else hadn't arrived and distracted him. After that no-one went in with him alone. He also started to bite the flippers of divers, and later pulled off parts of wetsuits? Personally I don't believe he was agressive. To me it seems more likely he was wanting attention: not wanting someone to leave the pool, and playing in a more and more demanding way. I'm not an anti, but I do feel that Cuddles was a sad ilustration of how not to keep an Orca. From DT's account he became progressively more dangerous (not in my opinion due to aggression...). I suspect he was going a little mad from isolation. In the wild Orca stay with their mothers for life, apparently handling mating by getting together with another group. It seems to me that a 'gold standard' for captive Orca care should include that. Also while captive Orca might be kept busy with training etc it seems to me most pools are basically barren. Take away the water and you are left with a bare concrete pit: which would not be acceptable for apes these days. Maybe we should be looking at providing soft bottoms (sand and/or gravel areas), toys and interesting objects, more interesting shapes to pools, growing kelp, chances to watch animals in nearby enclosures, etc. Would it be possible to keep Orca in a lake with salt tablets (as done with the sealions at Longleat?) Just a few thoughts... admittedly I've not seen any captive Orca recently, but from what photos I've seen most are kept in enclosures severly lacking in enrichment compared to most apes. And sealions may at least get to get out of their pools occasionally. Other dolphins and whales: same comments really, though I think the demands of keeping Orca to a real 'gold standard' would be much higher due to their size and social structure.
I think some historical context needs to considered. 'Cuddles' arrived from Canada in 1968 and was the first orca ever kept in a European zoo. Internationally, orca were not acquired for committed public display until 1965 with an animal called 'Numa'; prior to this there were two other animals one that died of trauma after hitting tank wall at Marineland of the Pacific in 1961 and another that was harpooned and shot in 1964 and was taken to Vancouver Aquarium where it survived for three months. So in the case of 'Cuddles' we are talking about a situation that occurred over 40 years ago!! Please remember there was no legal welfare requirements for any zoo animals in the UK until 1984 and those specific for cetaceans until 1988. I don't think that comparing the needs of primates with cetaceans is valid in the sense that primates are terrestrial and in many cases arboreal. Whereas cetaceans live totally aquatic lives at the sea surface. Dr Ken Norris a well known cetacean biologist once made the observation that social cetaceans require other animals of their kind which was far more important enrichment of their lives in aquaria. Moreover, aside from his time at Dudley 'Cuddles' was in the same pool as the bottlenose dolphins so he did have company albeit another species of cetacean.
I'm well aware of it being many years ago, I meant it as an illustration of where we have hopefully moved on from. But plenty of posts in this thread seem to be talking about getting 'a killer whale', and Cuddles himself has been referred to a number of times. 2 reasons why discussion is still valid. While I agree that others of their kind is probably of prime importance (especially with Orca that live life-long in the familly pod with mother, grandmother etc), it is not true to say Cetaceans only live at the surface, and I guess you are thinking in a 'barren' world. This is not true at all, and only shows ignorance of the sea as we are ourselves terrestrial animals. I think I'm right in saying the majority, if not all, captive Orca come from populations that live along coastlines and amoung islands (eg BC residents), not offshore populations. Have you ever seen footage of just how diverse the sea floor in British Columbia is? Eg vast kelp forests that the Orca swim through. Orca in the Northern BC resident population are also known to visit a particular bay in order to rub against the gravel floor: an example of how a gravel floor could provide enrichment. Even in the open sea, if the sea is healthy it is far from empty. Shoals of fish, floating islands of weed surrounded by life, birds flying above, other marine mammals communicating from miles appart, turtles (I've read accounts of people adrift on liferafts far into the open ocean: they saw life constantly, and they were stuck on the surface!) Moving off Orca for a minute, Dolphins in the wild use echo location to find prey in sandy sea bottoms. Another behavior that could be set up for enrichment in aquariums. Finally, another reason why I suggest soft bottoms for pools: cetaceans are very sensitive to noise. Soft bottoms would help to reduce harsh echoes within the tank, and provide variety for their advanced senses.
I am not sure if many zoo and aquaria are planning ‘getting a killer whale’ could you cite where? I have worked with aquatic animals since 1970 and am very much in touch with what is happening in the US and Europe. Where would they get these animals from? Russia is about the only place I could think of. In Europe and the US they would have to come from captive breeding or may be stranded animals. I could be offended by your suggestion that I am showing ‘ignorance of the sea’ particularly as I have spent most of my career working with animals from seas and oceans and also dealing with scientists who study these areas but I have got use to this kind of comment on Zoo Chat and respect the fact that some (but not all) who post on here are zoo fans and actually not zoo and aquarium professionals. I don’t think I suggested that the seas where barren worlds far from it. However the first thing the cetaceans need is other compatible members of their species. Most of the orca in captivity in the US and Europe are from the North Pacific area of the US and Canada and later Iceland. Both these environments are very different with Iceland having deep drop off from the it’s continental shelf. Not only is the environment different this also affects the behaviour of the animals themselves. It is interesting you mention the population dynamics of the North Pacific animals which are split into various groups but despite the fact we refer to some as ‘resident’ and ‘transients’ populations both of these groups disappear for months of a time from the waters around Vancouver and head out off shore for deep water. What they do then is unknown. The point I am making is that giving these animals environment enrichment in pool structure isn’t a bad thing but social structure is far more important. No amount of cage decoration will make up the company of other animals. I stand by my statement that cetaceans are mainly surface dwelling by that fact they are mammals and obligated air breathers with lungs. Those that spend time deep diving do so to hunt and feed they don’t do it for recreation. Orcas are actually dolphins – the biggest member of that family. I am not convinced that dolphins have problems with ‘harsh echoes’ in their environment as research demonstrates that they can control the volume of their echo-location as we do our voices; they are in total control of the sound and volume they choose to produce. Sometime they don’t echo-locate at all which can get them into trouble in the wild when confronted by fishing nets. Although echo-location in it's self may not save them as many modern fishing nets are invisible to echo-location.
I said there were posts talking about getting a killer whale, not aquaria. As for the rest, really, why are you so determined to argue that it's fine to keep cetaceans in a featurless concrete tanks. I've agreed with you that social groups are probably more important, but really, what is your objection to trying to provide a more interesting enviroment for them? So cetaceans deep dive to hunt, not for recreation: don't you realise that enrichment for zoo animals in general is not for 'recreation', it's to give them a more varied life. We give hamsters wheels, tunnels etc, what is so wrong with the suggestion we might give a cetacean some sand in the bottom of their pool? Right now I'd have to do a lot of research to find references to a lot of things I've refered to, and I really have better things to do. But on the sound issue: it's common knowledge that sound is a problem for cetaceans in the sea. Aquaria can be noisy places. And anyone who's been in an empty flat and heard the difference a few soft furninshing and rugs make knows that soft surfaces change sound. I wasn't actually talking about echo location (except that I did add on the end that sand etc could also provide oportunities for that) And yes I do know that Orca are dolphins. I was making a few points about Orca, with asides about the smaller species. I didn't feel the need right then to give people a lecture on that particular point.
I have absolutely no problem with giving animal interesting environments but I do have a problem with comments such as ‘featureless concrete tanks’ which tends to the mindless mantra of anti-dolphinaria industry. In point of fact, I am a big fan of the Dolphin Lagoon at Harderwijk (picture below) which runs on a biological filter system and contains dolphins, sea lions, seals and various fish and invertebrates and marine plants and algae. But I also really don’t have a huge issue with the more commonly found exhibits at places such as Brookfield Zoo (pictured below), Vancouver Aquarium, etc. Why? Because these places have successful maintained cetaceans for decades and the animals welfare both physically and psychology seems to perfectly okay. I am of the opinion that giving these animals in these situations a sand floor to their homes would result nothing more than causing huge problems for the water treatment systems and basically the resident animals would ignore the sand after a few days. This isn’t enriching their environment it’s in many cases window dressing for the viewing public. You have misunderstood my comment regarding ‘recreation’ this was related to behavioural necessaries (in this case to finding food) against behavioural needs (company of compatible co-specifics). Putting it simply the deep diving behaviour is related to obtaining food but if the food is provided the animals doesn’t need to forage at depth; diving isn’t per se a behavioural need. However, the animal – if it a social animal – will require company of animals of its same species. When seeking to design enrichment these are the kinds of things you have to be aware of. Interesting you should cite hamsters and running wheels. Millions are no doubt sold to pet owners as enrichment but there is some controversy to their use. To start with they have to be the right size as if they are too small they can cause deformation of the spine. Perhaps more concerning is that some have questioned whether the use of these wheels promotes some form of stereotypical behaviour. It has been found in rats that under some circumstances animals will actually (in extreme situation) allow themselves to starve to death as they become addicted to the use of the running wheel. The speculation is that the animals get hooked on the endorphins their bodies produce; this has been found is some human who over-train. My point is that enrichment for zoo animals has to thought through and appropriate. With respect I undertaken enrichment of animal exhibits for years and understand the concepts quite well. As regards marine mammals, of course, training has always been used as one of a number enrichment tools. If you’re seriously interested then I suggest you read books such as: [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Second-Nature-Environmental-Enrichment-Conservation/dp/1560983973"]Second Nature: Environmental Enrichment for Captive Animals [/ame] I am not sure if sand would an effective acoustic damper in a dolphin exhibit as no research as been done it that area as far as I am aware. I agree the sea can be a noisy place but in aquaria and zoos that is far more easy to control.
Being new to Zoo Chat I missed most of this thread as it was happening. I have to admit that Cuddles was my favourite ever zoo animal and I saw him regularly at both Flamingo Park and Dudley. Even now, maybe wrongly, I would not question his accommodation (although when I look at his former pool at Kirby Misperton it is hard to imagine such an animal in it), but my interest is primarily in exhibition and education not conservation and I am pleased that I was given the opportunity to see what I shall always call a Killer Whale. I did see Ramu at Windsor too. Regarding the size of pools, of the ones I saw I did think the Dolphin pool at Dudley was rather shallow and that Scarborough's was on the small side. If a UK collection had cetaceans now I'd be straight there! Where Flamingo Park is mentioned there does not seem to be any record of two very short-lived White-sided Dolphins there. I quote from The Times of 17th June 1964: "A week after being flown to Britain from Milan, two White-sided Dolphins have died at Flamingo Park Zoo, Malton, Yorkshire. The Dolphins, which cost £600, were brought in tanks to keep company with Flipper, another Dolphin which had been pining since the loss of her offspring in January. The cause of death is not known."
Thanks for the information I wasn't aware of the two white-side dolphins. There are various photos and information on my UK Dolphinaria web site if you follow the links to Flamingoland etc. You may also find the note on the historical background on the opening page interesting particularly the Klinowska and Brown 'Review of Dolphinaria' which I have linked to as you mention pool size. Which, of course, was the downfall of all the remaining dolphin pools in the UK as whilst a number had surfaces areas that complied with the new dolphin keeping regulations none reached the require depth criteria.
Thank-you for your reply John. I have just had an ejoyable few minutes looking at your website. I remember once looking out of the window of the cafe at Woolworths in Blackpool and seeing a Dolphin pool not too far away. That must therefore have been in 1969. Do you mind if I dispute a couple of dates? Flamingo Park opened on 28th June 1961, and Scarborough Zoo and Marineland on 15th June 1969. I did visit it soon after its opening. In Clinton Keeling's "Where The Macaw Preened" it is reported that one of the two Bottle-nosed Dolphins that arrived in its first week promptly died. I never thought much of Scarborough. Don Robinson himself would lead people around ("come and feed the lambs") and many of the animals had to put on a performance. The less said about the Chihuahuas dressed in little outfits and yapping along to "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window" the better!
