I wonder what would happen if they used sperm from a Mexican-owned panda to inseminate Edinburgh's Chinese-owned female panda. Or maybe there's a stipulation in their contract that they aren't allowed to do that.
Aren't they all Chinese owned? Previous AI attempt used frozen semen from a dead panda. Not really surprised by this, I still wonder if this is environmental rather than biological - there has been evidence before that they don't really like their enclosure location. I suspect if it hadn't been leaked, this would have been the first communication from the Zoo on the subject
Yes it could be a combination of several factors, but I think they need to face the reality here, thatvthe chances are obviously very slim indeed of any viable pregnancy occuring. They are clearly desperate for a cub, which is plainly obvious, but all this publicity is definitely not helping at all. They need to wait until a cub is actually born before telling the world.
I do think that was the plan this year. Other than the blog confirming they had used AI in March (published 2 months after the event, and I suspect the result of another leak) they hadn't said anything else
I think the zoo needs a totally different approach to this situation, as we seem to be going round in ever decreasing circles, it is all becoming rather predictable and frankly quite boring. But it is the zoo's own method of publicity which is perpetuating the whole situation. I think they need to face the reality that cubs seem highly unlikely now, but their obvious desperation is almost becoming an embarrassment. Apparently the zoo have been cutting back in other areas, in order to pay the Chinese an extortionate amount of money as part of the ten year loan for the non-breeding pandas. The zoo are stuck between a rock and a hard place it seems and with no cubs forthcoming, there is little justification for any of it.
The Mexico panda offspring (now all to old to breed .. alas) are all owned by Chapultepec themselves. It might even be that the erstwhile sire and dam were not part of a trade / quid pro quo deal ... (but not sure there).
the original pair in 1975 were a gift from China. There was no loan or money involved. All the pandas bred at the zoo (eight in total) therefore belonged to Mexico. Unfortunately for my earlier hypothetical question, both the remaining pandas at Chapultepec are females (I keep remembering them as male and female because one of them is called Shuan Shuan which sounds male to me). So there is no non-Chinese male panda to provide sperm.
Checked it over and indeed both parents were sent out on loan on a non quid pro quo basis. So, Chapultepec Zoo owned all the pandas loaned to them. They did receive another panda, male Chia Chia, from London Zoo in 1988 (official date ... beats me). He eventually was mated with Tohui and successfully sired a cub at Chapultepec July 1, 1990. NOTA BENE: all individuals (MALE and FEMALE) above 18 years of age are deemed reproductively senescent and are excluded from official breeding recommendations (as per CAZG and Dept. of Wildlife Conservation).
This is exactly why I really dislike the recent agreements between China and western Zoos regarding giant pandas. Giant pandas are not really that hard to breed - otherwise they`d long be extinct. But they breed very poorly if kept in pairs; they need multiple mates to choose. I hate that western zoos ignore that and keep them in pairs, well knowing that natural breeding very rarely happens in such a situation. AND pay millions of dollars to China for such a poor outcome, while telling the public that its all about conservation. Yeah. If zoos like Edinburgh & others would really be interested in creating the best situation for giant panda breeding, they`d create a facility to house at least 4 adults; or if that`s not possible, leave the breeding to China and exhibit only adults post breeding age. The only consolation is that the pandas breed so well in China that the population can afford to "waste" so many young animals in poor breeding situations. I just don`t understand why western zoos pay so much money for a pair; without cubs, they are guaranteed to lose money.
Agree !00% with that statement, though presumably the Chinese are equally to blame in not allowing the Zoos to have more than one pair each? Breeding is always made to sound so difficult to achieve but it shouldn't be. Where there is no chance for mate selection it must just be a matter of luck if the pair happen to be compatible or not. At Edinburgh they even have two proven breeders, though not with each other, and they seem to now have adopted the stance they will never mate naturally- for what reason, does she reject him? But each year they say the female has become pregnant from AI, but there is no resultant birth. Something very wrong somewhere.
I agree with much that had been said, I think there are many aspects to this situation and all parties involved are in some way to blame, or are responsible for the present scenario. In addition I feel rather sorry for the zoo itself, in that they are paying heavily for a non-breeding pair of pandas, in the desperate hope that a cub will be born - which would not only bring good publicity to the zoo, but would pacify and satisfy the Scottish Government who have been putting a great deal of pressure on the zoo to deliver - literally! Part of the agreement was that a potential panda birth could bring in £30 million pounds in revenue into the city of Edinburgh. I expect the zoo are now wondering why they ever bothered with pandas. Five attempts at artificial insemination and counting.........
Pandas wouldn't be extinct if they were hard to breed in captivity; there would simply be fewer in captivity. No animal breeds poorly in the wild. And I think it is just incorrect to say that western zoos "ignore that and keep them in pairs" - pairs are what are on offer from China, not groups. They can't be "ignoring" something if they have no control over it. The conservation aspect comes from the money paid to China, which goes towards the conservation of wild pandas. Strictly-speaking the zoos aren't doing it "for conservation" of course, they just want pandas, but the fee does go towards conservation programmes in China. The pandas themselves in a western zoo do nothing except, I suppose, through advocacy. Western zoos gain prestige from having pandas. They aren't there to start a captive population, they are just there for show and to attract visitors. That's why only pairs are provided. China doesn't need (or want) overseas panda populations. They would be pretty pointless. The western zoos only "need" cubs because typically the visitor numbers are not enough to offset the fees and they hope a cub will fix their losses. That's probably a good part of why Edinburgh brings up "possibly pregnant" every year, to keep it in the public awareness and hopefully add some more interest for visitors. That's not China's problem though.
I suggest this puts paid to any further discussion on giant pandas henceforth. Further, it might be useful to discourse the international program in a separate thread (as it has been leaning that way lately on here ...).
I guess that is why China attatches the rider on the loan agreement that any cub(s) must return to China by the age of(is it) 2 years old. As if, 'oh, if you do happen to (accidentally) breed one, we want it back....' Yet Edinburgh have had Chinese Scientists over every year to advise on breeding in this unnaturally-created situation- is that just for political show. The two issues seem at odds with each other.
Could the fact that there is never going to be a baby giant panda and the public are now fed up with the zoo's annual statement that they may be a expecting a baby soon, also still having to pay a huge annual rental for these two animals while the rest of the zoo suffers result in a very negative opinion of Edinburgh Zoo in the future? In the long term has this project been a disaster in every way?
everyone still benefits if a cub is born though, so I suppose that might be a part of it. The western zoo gets a massive increase in visitor numbers to see the cub and accolades from other zoos over their success, while China gets a lot more money (additional fees are added on with the birth of a cub) and also a new young panda coming back to China. Win-win.
Take this as you will but when I joined ZooChat I enjoyed reading the Edinburgh news threads but nowadays I skip them for weeks at a time. Most of the time it's either about the pandas breeding (or not!) and animals leaving the collection. This is a case of watching the mighty fall, a long bloody fall at that as well!
