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Elephant haven, European elephant sanctuary

Discussion in 'France' started by kiang, 28 Apr 2012.

  1. kiang

    kiang Well-Known Member

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  2. chizlit

    chizlit Well-Known Member

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    Very nice indeed, on a similar note something needs to be done for rhino's as the way they are 'protected' in the wild is not working.
     
  3. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    There are at least two places in the UK talking about doing something like this too- Longleat and Noah's Ark(though the latter have talked about a breeding group also) I wonder if there are enough Elephants in this category in Europe, to justify these plans.
     
  4. Jurek7

    Jurek7 Well-Known Member

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    Their website claims "hundreds of elephants across Europe" but doesn't give one example.

    There are already two huge open-range elephant places in Spain (Carbaceno and Benidorm).
    Zoos in Europe already take ex-circus elephants (how many circus elephants remain in Europe at all, BTW?)
    They seem to have no expertise to take juvenile captive-bred bulls from EEP and no interest in cooperating with EEP.
    They cannot easily take elephants from East European zoos outside EU, due to the complex veterinary regulations.

    So I think this is a solution without a problem?
     
  5. Yassa

    Yassa Well-Known Member

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    Cabarceno is a breeding group and won`t accept anymore needy elephants, certainly none which are non-breeding or having social problems. Terra Natura had due to economic reason to downsize its elephant population and moved most of their older females out. They only kept the 4 youngest females and the proven breeding bull. I don`t know if they are in any position to take new elephants now, but you bet that they would only take females in breeding age to "use" the potential of Luka.
    From what I have heard, Noah`s Ark will also house a group of 2-3 related females and a bull- ergo ANOTHER breeding group.

    There is definately a big, big problem in europe to house older, non-breeding females, especially those who have been exposed to diseases like TB or herpes and who are difficult to integrate into existing groups due to their character (f.e. very dominant).
    All zoos with good/ new enclosures want to breed, which is good and much-needed, but that leaves only zoos with old, outdated facilities for non-breeding females. Given that older females are often dominant and often have social problems due to their life histories, they are bad candidates for those small, outdated enclosures that can house 2-3 elephants max. What usually happens now is that these older females (either from zoos where they are not compartible with the group or from circusses) - due to a lack of alternatives - are placed in zoos with outdated enclosures and when she doesn`t get along with the other elephant(s), well, one has to move again. And again. This is not a good situation. Just look at the situation in Burgers Zoo. It`s good that they are taking older females, but a good place for older females should have at least 2 good-sized outdoor enclosures so that females like Rupa can stay and don`t have to be moved through half Europe to the next zoo, even though it is totally unkown if Rupa will get along with the elephant she is housed with in Italy.

    It seems to me one of the founders of this project is an (ex?) elephant keeper from Antwerp Zoo, so there is at least one person who has a lot of hands-on knowledge with elephants, incl. a bull.
     
  6. wibbs

    wibbs Well-Known Member

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    basically this plan soumd to me like animal rights are involved. ie PAWS are involved in this . I dont know where they get the idea that its its needed in Europe unless its the personnel opinions of the people involved.One of the people involved is also involved in a ducth animal rights group which are trying to stop circuses . . As we know the standard in Europe for elephants has improved over the years .
     
  7. wibbs

    wibbs Well-Known Member

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    Another note im sure we all aware of what happening in Toronto where the elephants have to move to animal sanctuary just because a tv host and a group of unknowledgeable councilors think its a good idea . This sanctuary could be another situation like that , where ther would like to have an elephant because they think its a good idea where its so further from the truth
     
  8. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    Yassa, if you claim this elderly elephant issue is a big issue in Europe where are the candidates that would qualify?

    If it is not down to factual examples of elephants that are now surplus to or are not being accommodated in EAZA accredited institutions I just fail to see any of them. Similarly, in respectable non EAZA zoos I do not see that many elephants to make it work either.

    Similarly thanks to new legislation circus elephants are fast becoming an 'endangered species" themselves and perversely actually might put circus elephants at the mercy of those managing these elephants. Without any income no quality elephant animal welfare (just look at what mahouts across South and Eastern Asia do with out-of-work or "underperforming" elephants).

    The only significant source could be illegal elephant live imports and these are far and few. Being a high profile animal elephants are less likely ignored in transport and as CITES species' will make most customs authorities scrutinize any paperwork.

    I really would love to see where the candidate elephants would come from to make the argument for a private sanctuary to be established in Europe one that will work. Real examples please!

    My final question: in what manner does this planned sanctuary work with elephant management from EAZA and the EEPs' for Asiatics and Africans?
    :confused:
     
  9. Yassa

    Yassa Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I think it is a very good idea to move the Toronto elephants to PAWS. And I am not anti-zoo. I am not even against keeping elephants in zoos. But please, if you do keep elephants, do it under better conditions then in Toronto.
    If you read my post above, you`ll see why non-breeding elephants have to live in substandart conditions in many, many European zoos. Those who mainly benefit from all the new enclosures and improvements are elephants fit for breeding.
     
  10. Yassa

    Yassa Well-Known Member

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    The first "real" candidates could be the 2 TB-infected elephants from Lyon Zoo. Lyon wants to get rid of them, but no zoo will take them and the zoo actually announced last year they would be euthananized if the circus where they originally came from doesn`t take them back. Neither has happened yet.
    There are a number of older females in zoos all over Europe in not so good situations which may have to move again due to social problems - or be kept alone for the rest of their lifes.
     
  11. wibbs

    wibbs Well-Known Member

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  12. Whiskas50

    Whiskas50 Member

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    Where is the other sanctuary in Europe please?
     
  13. wibbs

    wibbs Well-Known Member

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    check the link i put on there . if you dont speak fluent french use a translater .
     
  14. Whiskas50

    Whiskas50 Member

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    From what I can see the have rescued to elephants... They don't actually take anymore? Is that right?
     
  15. kiang

    kiang Well-Known Member

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    French planning officials have given the green light for the centre, with the first animals expected to arrive sometime in 2018.

    YESSSSS!!!