elephants hey guys the humane society and various other welfare organisations have tried to block the import again by calling a last minute tribunal in sydney. attended by the zpb of nsw the outcome will be known by the 16th of december. subject to no further complications the animals should arrive by easter. currently they are in quarantine
When I saw the news about the elephant importation being given the go ahead,the interviewed people from the RSPCA etc all seemedresigned to it.How disapointing that theyare continuingto try and block it.
elephants are in! but should we hold our breath? it's official! (again)..........or at least according to melbourne zoo. the zoo's have won and the elephants are about to head to the purpose-built cocos-keeling island quarrentine facilities, before arriving in australia later in the year. looks like they missed the commonwealth games........
yeah thts good to see , i always supported them coming , but no to sydney, i support melbourne having them , but taronga's exhibit in my opinoion is 2 small , or the wrong shape , it's round , i reakon the better option would have been an elongated exhibit , to stimulate movement , or did a spearate rotation exhibit like melbournes , maybe on 2 levels , giving the site . no doubt they will breed , previously , there was insufficent stock . have u seen the conditions , i have read that a complete closed circuit tv sysetm , with upto 24 cameras at ech exhibit. 2 mud wallows at each , 24m squared , and a 12 month trial for each elephant to choose the beeding they like most ! , dirt mounds have also had to be built . taronga has to meet 22 conditions , with melbourne 18 . the tribunal however did rule that the elephants - did not secify jst tarongas or melbournes , maybe all , will; be transferred to western plains , if the stricy contingencies , have not acheived the desired outcome. . my opinion , also a note that soon a elephant snctuary will be set up fior cirus elephants , although i beleive taronga already has plans to house the retired elephants at a new sanctuary in nsw or vic . anyine confirm ? hopefully it will be much like the elephant sanctuary in tennesse , that is currenlty recuing 8 abused elephants from the hawthorn corp. , go check it out at www.elephants.com and follow the many links . kool well thnx again
Patrick and I once had a very in depth conversation about the elephant sanctuary in Victoria. it was originaly set up to accomodate the ex ashons circus elephants, at least one of which has since died. Wht the whole ifea couldn't have been for breeding herds either I don't know. Now that Irwin has the three bullens elephants at his place ( and they have been there so long that it seems that they are permanent), there are now only three circus elephants left ( to my tally) Ana and the two from Ashtons. The elephant sactuary in Victoria never seemed to get of the ground ( this was about three years ago) so is there any new news about it?
gday yea i hve been reading up on the taronga updates in the telegraph and it says thta jessicA NAPIER ( FORMER MECLOUDS DUGHTERS ACTRESS ) IS BARACKING WITH THE RSPCA FOR AUSTRALIA'S six retiring elephants to go to taronga instead ? so tht has 6 in australia i dnt no either . also in light of this i have heard tht taronga is setiing up an elephat sanctruary , or there already is one , i have seen 1 photo of a sign tht says 'taronga elephant sanctuary " and it was in nsw i belive ??? i will try an dfind this picture and send yas an address
actually jay, i belive 2 of the ashton's elephants died tanya and abu. i believe it was just gigi who ended up with arna at stardust circus. i agree with you. although australia zoo don't own the bullens animals - they doo seem to be a permanant fixture there. i saw a advertisment at the bottom of the zoonewsdigest for an australia zoo elephant keeper. it said they where expanding and wanted more elephants. after the controversy melbourne and taronga have gone through i doubt the irwin's have intention of causing even more fuss (though they do have alot of friends in high places including the PM and i'm sure they could import them if they wanted too - just not without a fair bit of bad publicity as well). now i'm not sure either how many circus elephants are left (i know there is one young female african in NZ) but i suspect if they are fortunate enogh to retire, they will easily be accomidated for at either dubbo or australia zoo. there really isn't enough elephants in circus' in australia (nor are any young enough) to justify a constructing a sanctuary. i have never heard of the taronga sanctuary before. so lets hope those poor animals get to move to dubbo or australia zoo soon.
its sounds silly , situtunga females at dubbo , with males in nz , carnt we swap ? the bongos are ok , did u all no tht werribee has 2 males afican asses , i found it while on isis , how kool , are they on display ? my idea was , get the elephants out of taronga , to dubbo , and get some sumatran rhino , if possible , and put 1 or 2 in sydney , as the elephant exhibit can be divided in 2 , and put some more in dubbo , dubbo has a great enviriomment , out bac in the nature sanctuary , which has gone to ruin , again money , and build some isolated pens there away from ppl , and connect the to a central service area , wif crushes etc , how kool . and of course 1 on display !!! the problem with all zoos is money , i no i repeat it a lot but it is ! also we carnt jst breed some animals as for genetics , and the avilibiltiy of new stock , with quarrentine , did yas no warren andersons private zoo , all his antelope - addax and oryx as an example , are still in the northermn territiory , they were bought buy the bloke who has mareeba wild animal park , but the nt and queens qovt wont them then go to his zoo for the reson if they escape , they will breed and become feral , ??? i no i think u would c if a white animal was running awya , so if they r 2 b moved , the males have to be desexed ????
yeah, i heard about that rediculous stuff with the QLD government refusing to let antelope and tapir be moved into the state. no wonder you guys don't have a public statutory zoo (sorry jason, i know this is a touchy subject)!! as for the werribee ass' Zoo_Boy - don't get too excited - the african wild ass is actually just the proper name for a domestic donkey. same species. sorry. i checked out your photos of dubbo online - nice to see so many shots of the elephant exhibit. i had no idea how large the areas where and i was very happy to see that they are massive. this is exactly the sort of environment that i think should be the minimum standard size for elephants. i am now hoping that the taronga animals are eventually moved there after everyone realises how shithouse the "new" taronga exhibit actually is. i'll post some more comments regarding your photos, but i might move to the dubbo section to avoid this thread going off topic..
on breeding elephants... i'm interested to know how heman and burma are settling in at western plains. i always thought it was an unusual decision to move its two elephants all the way to dubbo and then open a multi-million dollar new exhibit without any elephants in it. i suppose this was so not to stress the elderly animals out by having them settle into a new enclosure when the zoo was confident that it would have it's baby elephant attractions approved for importation.on my last visit to taronga about a year ago i had a chat with a keeper about the elephants. he told me that the zoo had tried to walk the elephants around the zoo but that they where "completely mad" from years of being confined, and that unlike melbournes relatively mentally healthy pair, heman and burma could not adapt to anything other than "that hell-hole" they lived in. it has been quite remarkable the positive behavioural changes that melbournes elephants displayed when they moved into their new exhibit. but they are relatively young animals and the keepers had been working with them for many years to prepare them for the move and keep them physically and mentally fit. so i was wondering how taronga's animals have adapted to dubbo? Zoo_Boy you may be able to provide some info on this one. the other big question i wonder about is in relation to breeding. melbourne's elephants have undergone fertility testing and the results are that bong su, the male, is fertile but female mek kappah's reproductive system has shut down. at about 32 MK, is far from being too old to breed. however, since she did not get pregnant in her late teens early 20's her reproductive system simply shut down. this is a well researched and common problem with breeding elephants in captivity. so melbourne are importing two "baby" females and a 12 year old named dokkoon - who they hope will breed with BS. that means melbourne will have a breeding-age pair of elephants, but i wonder about taronga's plans. they are importing a 12 or 13 year old female but the male is only 5! my books say asian males take about 20 years to reach maturity (but perth zoo are hoping to breed their pair of elephants - both aged 16.). this would indicate that depending on the time involved for tarongas male to mature, their oldest female may between 23 and 28 years old. add to this that it sometimes takes a few years of research and planning before a zoo can nurture a sucessful pregnancy, and it seems taronga zoo may be following in melbourne's footsteps and becoming dangerously close to not breeding their eldest female in time. maybe they will send her on breeding loan to melbourne or perth, i don't know, but the zoo obviously chose to take an older female to be matriarch to the younger animals even though she is getting close to breeding age and will have no males to breed with! and what of auckland zoo? they chose to back out of the plan to import any elephants. are they still talking AI (and from where?) or have they given up on breeding their younger female entirely?
yea pat , heman and burma are doin great , they love there new exhibit , so much so , for the first time in 20 years they are now heard trumpeting throughout dubbo , amazing , they can now react with each other as well as cherie , yum yum and cuddles - the africans. heman and burma are still very healthy animals , and burma is not mentally mad , she is jst a bad elephant , no keepers go in with her she is just dangerous . tarongas new girls are aged between 5 and 13 , and the male is 5 but he will strat goin in to must at age 8 approx and will be breeding hopefully from there on .
hmmmm, well see. from all information i have ever read females can breed from there early teens but males take a fair bit longer to mature.
i vivted melbourne zoo the day after the elephants had moved into their new enclosure. they did the same thing you say heman and burma have started doing - they began to trumpet loudly and splash around in their mud wallow together. apparently keepers had tears in their eyes as the elephants had never vocalised in this way before. i also have noticed the female has stopped swaying and they elephants also often lie down and sleep in their sand piles during the day. melbourne is lucky in that both their elephants are very docile creatures. MK has full unprotected contact with her keepers and zoo visitors as she walks daily around the zoo. BS, being a very big male is only ever managed under protective contact, though the keepers have told me he is actually a big softie and is not a very agressive animal. i gotta say heman is a very impressive elephant, one tusk or not. he has this massive hump and neck - he reminds me of a mammoth!
Taronga Park Zoos own words I have again challenged Taronga Park about the decision to house a group of breeding elephants in their relatively small enclosure , when WPZ would be a more logical choice ? I have copied their response ; see below . I do not neccessarily agree with what they said , but its words from the horses mouth . I have asked Auckland Zoo what their latest thoughts are of breeding the elephants , and where will the semen come from if they still hope to achieve breeding by AI . Zooboy and/or Patrick ; You have both seen the Taronga Park Elephant complex ; Do you think it is really big enough for the elephants that Taronga Park have got ? Do elephants really need flattish land ? According to Wellington Zoo , one of the reasons that they didnt replace the elephant/s there was because of the steep terrain that covers alot of the zoo . OK , Wellington zoo is very steep ,( probably second only to San Diego Zoo ) but Taronga Park is not exactly flat , or even rolling land . Hi Nigel....thanks for your email of 3 March. I had previously responded to the majority of your queries in Dec last year - copy attached again for your records. Yes, we do have additional land earmarked for elephant exhibit expansion if required at both Taronga and Western Plains Zoos. The new Asian Elephant exhibit at WPZ is 12,574sqm. As part of the Cooperative Conservation Plan for Asian Elephants in Australasia, the herd will be managed as an cooperative group between ARAZPA Zoos. That means, in order to maintain a viable herd, offspring may be sent to other ARAZPA Zoos in the program. This will be done fully cognisant of family bonds, especially the recognition of mother/daughter relationships. In the majority of cases, they will not be separated (only under very specific circumstances). I am not quite sure what you mean by 'too steep for elephants' in relation to topography. The elephant's habitat/environment in Thailand can be a great deal steeper! I am again not quire sure what you mean about the relationship between steep slopes and breeding? Sydney-siders were very attached to 'Burma' and 'Heman', Taronga's resident Asian Elephants, and needed a very good reason for moving them to Western Plains Zoo. Call it a marketing tool, but we used the words 'retiring to WPZ' to communicate to the community. They are also very elderly for elephants and 'retirement' was a nice word to use. Taronga Zoo attracts more than 1.2 million visitors, whereas Wester Plains attracts somewhere in the vicinity 200k. Our conservation education and in-situ fundraising opportunities are far greater at Taronga. I could probably count on one hand the number of people who have asked for additional information than that provided on our website. We are more than happy to answer specific questions such as yours on a case-by-case basis. You can appreciate that the majority of the community can become overwhelmed by too much information and end up tuning out rather than absorbing it. We have proven on numerous fronts (including via the legal system) that we have only the best interest of the individual animals, as well as the entire endangered species, at heart. The community for the most part recognises the role Zoos play in conservation. We use the terminology in-situ conservation for ex-situ effort. Environmental and conservation education, research (both laboratory and in-situ), captive insurance populations and community enlightenment are all part of the process. The Zoological Parks Board of NSW has made a deliberate decision to fight the demise of the Asian Elephant - believe me, it's costing us a great deal more than we expect to get back via any increased admissions we may receive. On a purely commercial basis, this is not a viable investment, but one the ZPB has decided we must take up. We are a not-for-profit organisation and all proceeds are ploughed back into conservation and environmental education. I find it quite amusing that groups would think this was a commercial endeavour. I can hear you saying 'but what about investing in Thailand?' - well there just isn't the land/habitat available (only 15% of Thailand's rainforest remains), most of the displaced elephants are domestic and privately owned (2,500 domestic as opposed to approx 2,000 wild) and furthermore, Taronga and Western Plains Zoos are operated by the NSW Govt and thus the NSW tax payer, who do not think to kindly to their tax dollars being spent in another country. We have a formal partnership with the Thai Govt to provide funding for in-situ programs (such as funding to CITES MIKE for ranger training and wild elephant tracking, as well as funding for fencing pockets of natural habitat), provision of husbandry expertise and keeper exchange programs. Can I please reiterate that the elephants coming to Australia are domestic bred - NOT wild. They have spent a great deal of their lives tethered in tourist camps. Some of them were even walked into Bangkok to perform for tourists. Hope that covers all your queries. Kind regards Hayley Holloway
yea i have soon the exhibit, its great , everything an elephant could need, it is not steep, it has been levelled greatly and is on 2 srips, a upper and lower. they will breed great facilities , but size is an option. i agree with the eduaction purpose to put them in taronga, yes they would do better at dubbo , but i totaly understand.
thanks nige. i haven't seen the taronga exhibit finshed. from what i had seen, it looked as though it would be tiny - really, really small. but from Zoo_Boy's photos it seems alot larger than i had anticipated. however, i will forever stand by my firm belief that elephants belong at open range zoos. in regards to the flat land thing, i have heard many argue this point, that elephants need flat topography. i have to agree with the zoo, thailand has plenty of elephant country that is far more mountainous than taronga. i have seen fully grown elephants in sri lanka scramble up mud banks that even i would find difficult, just for some tasty vegetaion. melbourne zoo has actually gone so far as to perposefully create hilly terrain in their three elephant paddocks, claiming it is good excercise. but i understand where you get the idea from - alot of groups claim it is important. it may come from the fact that elephants have traditionally been kept in enclosures with dry moats and that plenty have fallen in and killed or injured themselves. it looks like elephants in the city zoos are at least for the next decade or so, here to stay. i guess the best we can hope for is that the breeding program is so sucessful, that we see breeding herds expand to dubbo, werribee and monarto as well.
yea breeding herds kool, the great thing is in terms of breeding is no fmeale is related , so all at taronga nd the female offspring , can be sired to bong su in melbourne and vice versa. so it will be good , as well as spred genetic material to perth as well. i alwys forget perth with elephants. but they have been hgetting a lot of mating activity recently so mayb perth will b the firts and beat melbourne and taronga.
