Thanks for the link Patrick! Interesting that in the brochure it states that Adelaide and Monarto combined receive over half a million visitors per year, but earlier in the link it states that an expected one million visitors per year will be arriving after the giant pandas are all ready to go. Anyone who slams Adelaide Zoo for obtaining pandas is a *****, as the number of people who visit the zoo will provide much needed funds for many years to come. It doesn't matter if the pandas cost a million per year for "renting them", or that they might take away from Aussie species...the bottom line is that the giant pandas mean that many more people will have the opportunity to visit South Australia and splash their cash on zoos, hotels, restaurants, businesses, etc, etc. Regardless of the initial cost, the giant pandas are a gold mine!! The pandas will be a magnet for tourism, and that is a wonderful thing for people who wish to see the Adelaide Zoo blossom into a truly great attraction. Monarto Zoo's 20% increase in attendance between 2006 and 2007 will zoom even higher with the upcoming chimpanzee exhibit, as primates are consistently huge crowd pleasers. The zoo needs to acquire more than just 3 of the apes, so that there is a large, cohesive group to entertain and amuse visitors along the boardwalk. The Serengeti exhibits appear to be top-notch, and South Australia in general must be excited by all of the numerous plans in place. It sounds like they will have two premier zoos by 2010, and the number of tourism dollars created is going to be enormous. When one considers that they already substantially improved the zoo with their large, multi-exhibit Asian rainforest section...now there is the opportunity for greatness. How much is all of this going to cost? The Asian rainforest exhibits cost millions, the chimpanzee exhibit is going to be over $1 million, the Envirodome is $4 million, the giant pandas are $10 million over 10 years, the panda exhibit, new cafe, washrooms, new entry, etc are all supposedly around $15-20 million, and the massive Serengeti enclosures will also be running into the millions. Where is all the money coming from?
Pat, That is a brilliant idea. The opening of a chimpanzee exhibit at Monarto in late 2008 coupled while vacating their former enclosure at Adelaide makes real sense. Adelaide Zoo will in addition gain a world class Environmental Education Center and ... and ... the Giant Panda exhibit ... a total Asian feel to the Zoo (coupled with its Australasian fauna and flora) with the Rainforest area already in place. The Serengeti exhibit at Monarto is a natural phase II onto the current sit at Monarto with functional groups of rhino, African wild dogs, cheetahs and all. It seems sensible to give the rhino an area of their own (I saw there is to be a separate bull enclosure at the bottom, the competitor bull ...), another area for African elephants, a separate giraffe house and a central plain where all hoofstock meet up. Correct me if I am wrong, but by the looks of it the African wild dogs seem to be getting an exhibit on either side of the Serengeti plain (1 opposite from the elephant area and another next to the Lion Kopje). I assume that most species mentioned are already there. But perhaps larger groups of these are envisaged (the famous Orana import of hoofstock ex US and Africa in the works) through imports and the African elephants is anybody's guess. Is there an exemption on import of pachyderms by Biosecurity Australia at all? Otherwise, it seems fair that Dubbo Zoo will relocate its Africans to Monarto? And then perhaps Monarto might import several young cows and another bull from S. African cull candidates!!! Another question: where are the 2 male Black Rhino kept at Monarto? And which individuals are they, the eldest ...?
interesting responses, and not at all what expected. firstly, zooboy. you comment that "monarto have room for both". that doesn't make much sense to me since, since according to this the zoo has no plans for asian elephants and surely you know that african elephants cannot be kept close to breeding asians because of disease transfer risk. but let me throw you this argument... in my opinion, if monarto get african elephants it represents what is possibly a fundamental flaw in the ARAZPA organisation. because the member institutions, who are supposed to be working together for a common goal (breeding endangered species) are in fact, partially competing with one another. the most obvious way to compete is to provide an attraction no other zoo holds and in the context of zoos, the most obvious way to do that is to exclusively hold a different species. obviously, since ARAZPA's co-operative collection plans are decided by the member institutions, and i see little other way to do it, it keeps a window open for any zoo to go against the recommendations of others. interestingly, there is only a tiny fraction of the regions collective collection that is actually falls in the category of a proper managed breeding program, in which enough zoos have agreed to participate that a proper program is outlined. asian elephants are one of those few species. if the long-term goal is to have a self-sustaining population of asian elephants in australiasia. how on earth is it anything but counterproductive when one of the few zoos we have, and one with the potential to hold one of the largest groupings at that - decides to keep a less threatened species, ya know, just to be different. they already have their pandas.
I am a bit of a fence sitter when it comes to African Elephants in Australian zoos....... to import species that do not fall under the banner of a PMP goes against the principles I argue strongly about. however, I would not have a big problem with Monarto if they chose to do so. to base this argument on a series of hypotheticals....... *Western Australia's zoo community may be able to further ramp up its commitment to the Asian Elephant species, through attrition (of 1 AGED COW) creating more space, AND/OR the proposed open-range zoo for this state. *hypothetically, WPZ in Dubbo could relocate any aged African Elephants it has to Monarto, thus creating an African free zone, and thereby allowing ZOOs NSW to focus exclusively on Asian Elephants. *we cannot also forget Melbourne Zoo, Australia Zoo and Auckland Zoo, who also offer (hypothetically) greater capacity for Asian Elephants. it would be nice to see Monarto focusing on Asian Elephants too. But either species are likely to 'pay their own way' in terms of building an exhibit for them. As Monarto have never really indicated whether they would be involved with the Asian Elephant PMP does it really matter if they get elephants? has their potential involvement been factored into the PMP? does the PMP depend on ZOOs SA involvement? probably not. the PMP for a long lived, slowly breeding species held by a range of zoos in good exhibits is not likely to be compromised as easily as a species under the Primate or Carnivore TAG (ie the Jaguar vs Snow Leopard situation) could be. there are a number of other reasons for backing a proposed import. acquiring 'cull' animals would be a welfare 'save' and probably alot easier to get approved. Monarto elephants would not likely compromise the Asian Elephant PMP through space issues, and it would be a great species to use as a flagship for conservation issues. African Elephants would also drive attendance to Monarto and raise funds, for the zoos own conservation work. either way such an import is probably some time away.
I beg to agree with glyn on this outing! Surely, an Asian Elephant PMP is not dependent on the active participation of Monarto Zoo alone. Currently, the Asian Elephant PMP has the combined strength of 3 major Australian zoos - Melbourne, Perth and Taronga Sydney. Another 2 - Australia Zoo and WPZ - can be regarded holding facilities for older range elephants (a prerequisite if future breeding potential at the breeding locations is to be realistically achieved. Both Australia and WPZ Zoos offer the possibility of establishing a breeding group or bull holding facility when the breeding programme really comes under steam. Just sideways: I am not sure what part Auckland Zoo is playing in the breeding programme at the moment. I myself am seriously at odds with their policy of retaining a potential breeding age female and not releasing the elder cow to Australia Zoo or WPZ. This arguement becomes even more relevant if the current elder African elephant cows at WPZ could (first) be relocated to Monarto too in tandem with a proposed import of listed "cull" elephants ex Kruger or Natal from South Africa. That latter would solve 2 prime Asian elephant welfare issues - and 1 for space on top of that. WPZ would be able to increase its holding capacity for Asian elephants. Besides the above PMP considerations, Monarto Zoo is heavily themed as an African wildlife park with several specialised Australian outback endangered species programmes, whereas at its sister zoo Adelaide emphasis is more on Asian and Australian faunas. So, no love lost there either.
Jelle you make some really good points here, and in regards to Auckland zoo I have been wondering if they are going to play a part in the in the elephant breeding program for some time, it would seem there appears not a lot of interest unless others know different
all quite valid points glyn. but i suppose you could always say the asian breeding program would be much better off if a zoo like monarto joined the ranks. and certainly, i don't think one can argue that african elephants are a bigger attraction than asians. so it makes you wonder, why choose them? probably the ease at which they can be acquired is one driving force. i agree with glyn, it seems a lot less controversial and easy to import animals destined for culling than highly endangered asians nowdays (though SDWAP didn't entirely get off some bad press when they did it). but also is the desire to have something different. no doubt a few of us here secretly like the idea of a breeding herd of african elephants in australia simply because it makes us feel good to know we have both kinds. i doubt zoo directors and CEO's are any more immune to this feeling than we are. ultimately, however i think its counter-productive to the asian elephant program. how counterproductive is up to debate. but its counterproductive nonetheless.
Jelle, i think were on the same page, you just misinterpreted my stance, which was based on a range of hypotheticals after all. if monarto are planning an elephant exhibit for the near future then it would be advantageous to the Asian Elephant PMP long-term for Monarto to focus on them. but with the regional decline in exotic fauna (admittedly from trying to keep too many different species) and therefore greater holding potential, collectively for fewer species African Elephants do become a rare candidate for importation and display. possibly managed as an extension to the SSP or EEP? as Jelle pointed out African elephants fit more closely with Monarto's projected focus on African and grassland fauna. and few could argue that within ten years, if it is still a viable attraction, that Western Plains Zoo could come into its own in terms of the Asian program through relocation of its African cows and attrition (of existing aged Asian elephants), thereby placing it as a major holder of Asian Elephant with facilities to accomodate at least half a dozen animals. Long term i would not discount Auckland Zoos participation in the program. I dont think suspect theyll be putting their hands up for a Thai import, id say either Perth or Australia Zoo will throw their hats into the ring for that one. But I would not look past them as future holders of Australian bred elephants sent there as part of the ASMP. the beauty of the Elephant is, after all its slow rate of reproduction. our zoos now have a good opportunity-10 potential founder stock, a confirmed pregnancy, depending on how you look at it many zoos hold old elepants likely to die soon and thus generate more space, 6 participating zoos and all equipped with good exhibits. the Asian Elephant ASMP is finally getting off the ground. decisions on the African elephant could be made from here.
I understand Australia's situation with a lack of holding space for any elephant. But for Monarto, a long-term African Elephant population may actually seem possible through AI. About half of African Elephant calves born in the US are results from AI techniques. While there may not be a program in Australia for Africans, Monarto could also join the EEP or SSP for African Elephants. Dubbo is already participating in the Southern Black Rhino SSP. And there are other zoos foreign to AZA/EAZA that participate in their captive programs.
I can`t see any sense in bringing new african elephants to Monarto. That would be for display only, as we have seen it decades ago when most if not all zoos didn`t bother with breeding elephants and kept them for display purposes only. This is not really compartible with the modern role of a zoo; Monarto should better take part in the asian elephant breeding program!! The 10 potentional founders now in australian zoos are not much and the 3 major zoos taking part in the breeding program neither. Just to compare, in Europe there have now 20+ Zoos with breeding groups of asian elephants, and around a dozend for the african species! And these are just the breeding groups!! With so few zoos in Australia which have the financial resources to keep a breeding or bull group of elephants, NOT ONE should waste space and money on bringing in new african elephants for display only. The dreams of zoo directors to have a vast collection of rare and unusual animals are less important then one of the very few coordinated breeding programs in the region for an endangered species.
I feel sorry for you Aussies and the limited number of species that are available. Reading threads about the last 4 jaguars in the nation, or the phasing out of dwarf mongooses, and now the battle over maintaining a tiny herd of elephants is depressing. It's really too bad that there are such strict guidelines for the importing of animals. The richness of vast breeding resources that are available in other countries is simply not allowed in Australia, but one can only hope that eventually some of the stringent laws will be altered and animals like jaguars and a variety of hoofstock will once again be allowed to be added to zoo collections.
Snowleopard, Its not the law stopping the importation of Jaguars into Australia, its because they are not on the collection plans of our zoos
as important as zoo breeding programs are for conserving endangered animals, including antelopes, and as small the risk importing antelope represents, i like our tough biosecurity stance. back to elephants briefly, and im just doing a rough guesstimate on possible numbers for both species in our country, based again on a series of hypotheticals. this includes breeding all 7 Thai cows at least once, aged animals dying and import of up to 6 new animals from Overseas. And also Monarto acquirring African elephants.... First of all...... *by Monarto acquirring African Elephants the possibility would exist for Western Plains Zoo to relocate its African Elephants there. Based on the premise that Dubbo's current Asian elephants, all 50+ could pass away within the next ten to 15 years, this would mean Dubbo could become a major holding centre for the Asian Elephant without the risk of herpes transmisson, either through primary contact or secondary infection. Dubbo has held up to 6 elephants before. I would nominate them holding the same ammount of Asians, possibly a bachelor herd. SUBTOTAL 6 *Taronga, I would estimate could hold up to ten animals. I bet there will be an expansion of the elephant exhibit in the future, and I bet it will be somewhere near to where Ive suggested before (opposite the big cats/tahr). By effectively doubling the exhibit size (arguments over space aside) and working upon the formula that if 5 animals can be kept on 2000 metres of land, then i reckon they could get away with up to 7 or 8 animals in the main herd plus two bulls in the bull compound. SUBTOTAL 8 *Melbourne Zoo reckons they are going to breed their 3 females. even if each cow only produces one calf each, that will bring the number there to 8. SUBTOTAL 8 *I havent seen Australia Zoo's Elephantasia for myself yet, but I seriously doubt any zoo would spend that amount of money on an exhibit that could potentially be empty within the next few years. I estimate conservatively that it could hold up to 5 or 6 animals. For arguments sake Ill put the total at that. SUBTOTAL 5 *Perth Zoo. Trisha is still going strong, but with no breeding over that way they might be down to two animals soon. For a long time theyve held 4 elephants, and were ready for up to 5 when they announced mating between the bull and cow. Since then, no breeding but the enclosure has been improved. Ill put their SUBTOTAL@5. *Auckland Zoo can hold up to 4 elephants in their facility. Thats room for at least 2 more cows. SUBTOTAL 4 Ultimately, I think there is room for up to 36 elephants in our zoos. Given that at least 7 of the elephants Ive counted in to the above are over 50, it does give this ASMP alot of potential. Numerically, this program could survive without any participation from Zoos SA, but if they were to build a premier elephant exhibit for African elephants then Dubbo may be able to better participate in the breeding program as a whole. something to think about anyway.
@glyn: your rationale towards the Australian elephant program is sensible, as long as the current stock actually breed on a fairly consistent basis. You've brought up a good point concerning Australia Zoo, as they have a massive enclosure but three very old elephants. I'm wondering if there are already plans to somehow phase out their three old ladies and get some new blood pumping in Queensland. Overall I like your assessment, as many people are not happy that Monarto is considering bringing in African elephants. But you've shown that if they did it wouldn't necessarily cause problems. The more the merrier...
jeez guys if it was only so easy, there are just to many hypotheticals on here, elephants cost money, it cost money to breed elephants, and the likely hood of having 36 elephants around with in a few years is very unlikely.
Glyn You say you like our (i.e. Australia's) tough biosecurity stance, but you don't say why. I don't like it at all. I think it is a "shield" for animal libbers to hide behind to justify their prohibitionist views.
the reason why I like our tough, real or projected, stance on biosecurity is because I DONT like the idea of any more infectious diseases entering our country and impacting upon the industry's which sustain our economy. the risk of infectious diseases entering our country from overseas via zoo animals may be small, but the fact that we remain largely disease free is surely a good thing. even if it means we have inbred bongo herds. thanks Snow Leopard, i liked my analysis too. i didnt think i was being unrealistic either, quite the opposite. the demographic composition of the regional herd certainly supports my hypothetical projection. the current population is either.... a-really old (8 animals). all > 40 found @ Auckland, Australia, Perth and TWPZ. b-really young or capable of breeding (11) found at Taronga, Melbourne and Perth. or c-(the minority) still relatively young but with 0 or little breeding potential. (2). Found at Auckland and Melbourne. My estimated regional total would equal within ten years... 11+8+2=21 -8 (within ten years) =13 +7 (calves from 7 Thai cows) =20. From my earlier post, that still leaves up to 16 spaces currently occupied by category A stock, or under utilised (as in Perth and Auckland's case), or planned/estimated (the expansion of both Taronga and Melbourne Zoo exhibits is only logical/inevitable, even if it is not even planned yet. These spaces could be filled with additional breeding or imports. As I said before, this ASMP has plenty of potential.
btw zoo boy, the likelihood of us having 36 elephants in a few years was the basis of my whole argument. our Asian Elephant ASMP doesnt really even need any involvement from Zoos SA other than to accept African elephants for it to be sustaining
I would support Monarto with African elephants, perhaps even Werribee at that (both perfectly suiting their African savannah theme). Given the availability of cull candidate Africans in southern Africa why not set up a parallel breeding programme for Africans. The WPZ elder stock should be moved on to Werribee and introduced to an imported core of young African elephants ex South Africa. The freed up space at Dubbo could be used to really make a move on with the breeding programme for Asian elephants. Provide it with facilities for a) a group of elderly elephants (take in the Auckland female and the elderly Perth female too), b) set up bull holding facilities for future bull calves to be kept in a bachelor situation and c) for the future reserve space for an elephant breeding complex! Australia zoo could similarly set up: a) a group of elderly reproductively senescent females (like they already have) and b) provide acco with bull facilities for a breeding complex of Asian elephants (the candidates to be imported from Thailand or Malaysia). And the ASMP for Asian elephants would look the merrier and more promising. Combined with conservation support from the Victoria Zoo Board, the ZPB at Taronga and the SA Zoos (Adelaide and Monarto) to an in situ project in Asian elephant range states each ... it would be a virtual masterpiece (and finally shooting these Greens with their own ammo)!
the Asian Elephant ASMP is also a guarantee of sorts. we can debate whether or not a zoo needs elephants, but in region where zoos have very little choice when it comes to what exotic animal species they can display, at least now were guaranteed to have at least some animals left in the zoo
