interesting article Seems the elephant debate is getting even hotter! just read this article at: www.theage.com.au/articles/ 2005/03/24/1111525290744.html it talks about some of the particulars surrounding the import that i was not aware of. apparently auckland zoo has said it no longer wants to take the only bull that being imported (the plan was that auckland gets a bull and a cow), instead it only wants to keep female elephants. now the bull is planned to go to taronga, who i have heard has no bull facilities. seems all those stupid decisions taken out by the zoo's management is backfiring big time. its a shame, id'e love to see a breeding herd of elephants in australasia.....
elephants for zoos ..... I was unable to access the article that you posted , Patrick , but I have asked my contact at the Auckland Zoo to tell me what is really going on . I informed her that we have been getting numerous conflicting reports and I wanted to know what the real story is . This approach will be better than blasting the zoo , and then expecting a reply Could it be possible for you to copy/paste the article ? How much progress has been made with the idea of making cow elephants through Artificial insemination ? I suspect that this would be Auclands preferred way to breed elephants . There is not much room left for big expansion of the elephant enclosure , unless the city grants them more land at Western Springs , which would mean less public parkspace . I would be happy about this , but alot of Aucklanders may not .
Ai yeah sorry, the article has now been removed from the age website - you will now have to purchase it from the archives. in regards to AI in elephants, there have been numerous sucsessful births overseas (mostly in the US) with both african and asian species, but the elephant keeper at melbourne recently told me that it is very difficult and not the preffered option. apparently, elephants sperm is only viable for a mere few hours and though theoretically possible, it required very well synchronised procedures and transport. i would imagine this would be quite difficult for our region in particular with so many of the australasian cities many hours apart by plane. the flight from perth to auckland for example is further than melbourne to indonesia! i was also told by the melbourne keeper that although one of auckland's females is suspected of being fertile, it has not yet been proven. it is up to the individual zoos to determine the reroductive health of its elephants and so far melbourne is the only zoo to have done that. the result - a barren cow and fertile bull. one of the other delays with the elephant importation was that the zoos discovered that one of the apparently "proven breeder" cows in quarrentine in thailand was not 20 but actually 40! would it be safe to say that the fact that the elephant-holding zoos have only just now begun to test their animals fertility is a clear sign that they have never seriously considered moving all the animals to one site? if they had considered developing a herd from existing stock, would that have not been the first question - how many potential breeders do we have?
more thoughts on elephants etc this is getting into an area which I will admit that i know nothing about -- but what is the procedure for determining as to whether a cow elephant is actually fertile - besides the age of the cow ? If a bull is fertile he will be showing signs of Mussht ( or whatever its called ) but if the cow doesnt display any such behaviour , it will be a little more difficult -- especially if there is no male elephant in the region , as the current case for Auckland . I certainly agree that the zoos should send their fertile stock to the largest of the open range zoos and set up conditions that would encourage the elephants to breed . Even if only one baby elephant is born , this would be a positive thing for the zoos and the elephants alike . If Auckland wants to back down from the breeding programme , the least they could do would be to swap the most fertile cow with another Australian cow that isnt likely to breed . As much as Auckland Zoo has done very well in the whole area of elephant care and husbandry ( and finding jobs for the elephants to get some exercise /relieve boredom ) I personally think that more than 2 elephants will be too much for them to cope with ( unless there is extra room and staff and resources etc ) Do you know of any zoos anywhere that have mixed enclosures that include elephants ? The closest one that I know of is the elephants/humans sharing the same pathway at Auckland/Melbourne Zoos , but this is not quite what I was meaning .
elephants sharing spaces.... i think the testing proedure for elephant fertility is much more technical. in regards to melbourne sperm counts were performed on bong-su semen and mek kapah underwent internal and hormonal testing to check if she is cycling and thus determine her reproductive health. it's lab stuff, not so much visual. i agree that if auckland does not want to house a bull, or have not (as you suggest) have room for additional animals, then they should be prepared to send their fertile cow to australia. however, i also respect that elephants create strong bonds and therefore her non-fertile companion should be expected to join her. in the wild female elephants rarely leave their maternal herd - i expect that elephant husbandry in zoo's should reflect this. mixed species elephant ehibits? well elephants can be not the friendliest animals when it comes to sharing space with other species. they are the biggest land animal on earth and i think they know it! however i have read on the net about zoo's in germany in particular, that have had elephant species displayed alongside other animals. one exhibit displayed african elephants with baboons. the primates had rocky areas that were inacessable to the pachyderms. another zoo housed blackbuck antelope and deer species with a lone female asian elephant. whenever the elephant sought physical affection from one of the antelope/deer they ran away - poor thing! i have asked both melbourne and werribee staff on so amny occasions why melbourne's elephants could not be displayed at werribee. every time i have exactly the same answer.. "well the elephants are actually asian elephants not african, so they wouldn't really fit in with the rhino and giraffe at werribee" i have never really understood it beacause a) they are assuming that the elephants have to be housed with the african animals, not in their own exhibit. b) the zoo does have an asian paddock as well that indian hoofstock, why wouldn't it be assumed that they would be displayed alongside these animals? in fact, having visited the terai of north india personally, i am supprised that a mixed-species asian exhibit has never been attempted. in australian zoo's we have all the following indian grassland animals on display at one zoo or another - mainland asian elephant indian rhinoceros sambar deer chital deer hog deer indian antelope (blackbuck) nilgai antelope asiatic (water) buffalo banteng blue peafowl as well as numerous smaller species such as pocupines, cats, otter and primates that hail from this particular habitat. all present in australian zoos. i think an open range exhibit for these animals would rival any african display. as long as the area is large enough i see no reason why the elephants could not share the space - i found the elephants in india were actually a little nervous around the rhino, they obviously have a healthy respect for one another!
mixed exhibits etc My understanding is that Werribee Open Range Zoo has an Asia section as well as an African section ( but I could have got my wires crossed ) so the silly answer that the elephants at the Australian zoos are actually Asian elephants is not easily swallowed by me ! And it gets a little annoying to be treated like a totally ignorant person when we have such a keen interest in zoos etc Quite apart from the fact that even though I dont hold a doctorate in zoology , I can still discern whether an elephant ( be it live , a picture of one , stuffed in a museum or whatever ) is an African or an Indian one -- they are not that hard to distinguish . I accept that it would be difficult to house African elephants with other animals in the one enclosure , but it would be foolish Asian elephant/'rhino that would tangle with the other . I also accept that it wouldnt be too wise to put in pregnant or young specimans in the mixed exhibit ..... I am not sure about whether the baboons would stay in their rocky outcrops in a mixed enclosure , or would try and challenge an elephant on the flatter part of the enclosure ( they give me the impression that they can be quite stroppy primates -- again , I stand to be corrected here )
elephants on the open range... yes as i mentioned (though i was typing fast and missed a few words, making it confusing) werribee zoo does have an "asian grassland" paddock, containing at times any of the following; water buffalo, sambar deer, chital deer, indian antelope and przwalski's horses. however, werribee seems hell-bent on focusing on african species and marketthe zoo entirely as an african-themed attraction. a melbourne keeper said there was talk amogst zoo management of having melbourne zoo exclusively asian and werribbe exclusively african - of course i can't see melbourne getting rid of its gorllias anytime soon and i think that's a bit rediculous. what i would like to see is a more clearly defined concept between the city zoo, with its matured botanical setting that can cater better for species from rainforests and other habitats that need careful planning and design, and open-range zoos, that have the space and environment to display large herds of animals from the grasslands of the world. i much prefer the idea of difining the zoos on they types of habitats they display, rather that different regions of the world. but back on elephants (and the topic of this thread), whether or not the elephants and other species can share the same enclosure at the same time (and i suspect that at least some of the faster deer species might do okay if the enclosure was say as big as werribees savanna) the elephants would i imagine benifit greatly from just being with visual contact of other types of animals. i have read reports of zoo's finding that the stimuli of other animals being around often can encourage (sub)ungulates like rhino or elephants to breed as well as improving their mental condition. we should hear within the next couple of weeks if the auckland/melbourne/taronga consortium will be successful at getting their application approved. if they do, it will open the gates for another importation as monarto zoo (finally an open range zoo!) and australia zoo are both planning new elephant exhibits as well.
Hey Patrick If you can access the Herald Sun from the 12th April there is a picture and tiny article about Perth Zoos elephants. This is what it says "IT'S clearly a case of true love for these two elephants at Perth Zoo. The pair haven't been coy in showing visitors their mating rituals, which include lots of nuzzling and plenty of shared showers." No actual mention of mating though. Perth zoo has the most viable breeding group with two young femaels and a bull. If any zoo can breed them at the moment it is likely to be them. I hope that they will. At the moment I am very disapointed with the various zoos involved as they really should have gone about all this in a better way. It is a promotional farce at the moment and the various animal rights groups have got a lot of support, including mine. BTW. the director of the South Australian zoos has stated in a letter to the ;paper, late last year, that Monarto will NOT be getting elephants anytime in the near future. He said that costs involved, over a million dollers per elephant per year, was too prohibitive and that zoo has other priorities Unfortunaetly I can no longer find the article on the net now so will have to look through my print outs for it. Jason
perth's elephants and jason, i hope they breed them too! remember just a few years back perth zoo came very close to sending their bull to america because they didn't want to invest in the facilities to hold him! now he's one of only two potentailly breedable bulls in australia (in fact he is one of only three in australia - i'm very glad we kept him!). do you think the bulls would benifit from the presence of other males? i suspect that mating behaviour could be kicked in by a bit of male rivelry. in the wild bulls often form batchelor groups. i would have liked to see the zoo's build facilities for multiple cows and bulls. perth zoo imported those 3 young elephants from malaysia in the mid-nineties. does anyone know if that caused any controversy/opposition? i have never been to perth. can anyone tell me what the zoo/elephant enclosure there like?
Check out the perth zoo website. They have a very interesting news article about the elephants. Thanks to Mark for bringing it to my attention. Sixteen year old female Permai and the sixteen year old male, Putra Mas are mating, and both are fertile - very promising!! However the zoo won't be breeding from the fifteen year old Teduh as she has a weak skeletal system, presumablt this means that she would not be able to cope with the weight involved in matiung and bearing a calf. So that means the loss of another potential breeding female. Sad. I haven't been to the zoo but I have seen pictures of the elephant enclosure, which looks ok to me, though probably not big enough. The zoo is going to upgrade it though. I am also glad that they didn't send youn Putra Mas away. From what the zoo says it doens't seem that he needs stimulas. If the importation does not go ahead, can you see any point in breeding this pair? As the situation stands they are the only possible breeding pair and any young won't have any breeding partners. Even if a female is born, the only potential male would be the male at Melbourne, presuming he is still alive and fertile in 16-20 years. Jason
breeding at perth? yeah true regarding the lack of potential breeding partners for any perth-born offspring. however, if aucklands youngest female is still fertile (and i must mention here that if she is, they better bloody get a move on, because if mek-kapah, barren at the ripe young age of 30 is anything to go by, there's not much time left!), and the zoo's don't get their import permit approved, then i would hope that she and her older companion are immediately moved to melbourne in the hope that she might breed with bong-su (auckland do not have bull facilities). that would mean that with two breeding pairs the zoos can at least breed past the first generation. this is a good example of how the zoo's screwed up - they wanted to import more elephants to join a breeding program that had so far been completely unsuccessful! i imagine if the zoo's had ACTUALLY TRIED to breed their elephants, then argued that their sucessful breeding program required more animals to continue, they would not have met with anywhere as much fierce opposition as they have. i would be supprised however, given the various zoo's attitudes regarding their current elephants, if auckland gave up it's elephants to send them to melbournes much better facilities. more likely, i expect they'd try AI with bong-su's semen. am very excited to hear about perth's elephants however...
Perth Zoo I have been to Perth Zoo a long time ago , and although it is a nice zoo , with efforts being made to house animals in reasonable enclosures , it is a smallish zoo ( my guess would be about the same acreage as Adelaide City zoo ) That was back in the America/Fremantle Cup days . They had one or two elephants back then in a better enclosure than what Auckland used to have for the elephants ( but that wouldnt have been too hard ) but it would have only been about an acre at most -- too small for long term housing of elephants . Does that zoo take any of their elephants for wanders through the zoo , like Auckland and Melbourne ? Too bad that there is not an open range zoo in WA . It would be an ideal place for the fertile couple ( and I also wish them the best of luck ! )
WA Open Range Zoo? No, there is no open range zoo in western australia. however there has been some talk for awhile amongst the zoo board about creating one. i remember a few months ago reading a newspaper article that talked about a certain site near perth that the zoo was looking into developing in the future. i guess they like the "sister open-range zoo" concept NSW, VIC and finally SA got into. oh, how nice it would be for a baby elephant!
Strategic plans for our zoos I have read the strategic plans for the Perth , Melbourne , and Wellington Zoos from their respective websites . What Patrick is being told appears to contradict the Melbourne Zoos strategic plan , so I wont comment any more on that one . Perth Zoo admits that its space is far too small to adequately cope with larger animals , and specifically mentioned elephants as an example . It appears to be making serious initial plans to locate , design and build another zoo with more room , possibly an open range style . Wellington has recently hired Zoo designers ( the same ones that designed Melbournes new elephant facility ) to assist Zoo management to redevelop NZs oldest ( and in parts , still the most run down ) zoo . Although Wellington Zoo is totally unsuitable for elephants , the report did refer to Auckland Zoo actually is planning to build facility for bull elephant/s . Please note that in an earlier part of this thread , I doubted if the current elephant facility to house any extra elephants . That is purely my own thoughts , and not the official zoo plan . Auckland Zoo has the reputation for creating good facilities for its animals , and there may well be major works underway to enlarge the elephant facilities , even if they dig away half a hill or something I must agree with Patrick that this combined zoo effort to get more elephant breeding stock has been managed somewhat poorly
Here is an interesting little point. I was contacted about a year aog by a Perth company that was going to put in a tender for the job to create the new elephant exhibit. of course I wasn't able to help them but it does look like that perth is going to go ahead. Jason
Official response re elephant issue at Auckland Zoo Dear Nigel, Leigh has forwarded me your query in regards the elephant importation into Australasia. I hope the following points address your email: - Auckland Zoo is part of a regional importation of elephants that has agreed on a Captive Management Plan (CMP) that increases the number of elephants held in the region and maximises the breeding potential of all elephants held. - Auckland Zoo did plan to bring in a young male elephant along with a young female elephant with this current importation. Our strategic intention has always been to increase our elephant facilities to accommodate a bull from 2009 onwards. It was felt a young bull would not require the current facility to be altered before that time. It is now apparent that even a 4 year old bull requires a certain level of protected contact and our facility alterations would be required before 2009 (not possible budget wise). It has hence been agreed by the region that Taronga Zoo would take a young bull now (as they can provide the required facilities) and we would import a male after 2009 continuing with our planned breeding strategy. Kind regards, Maria Maria Finnigan Manager Life Sciences, Auckland Zoo www.aucklandzoo.co.nz Phone: 09 360 3808 Mbl: 027 2724 021
re the Auckland Zoo response My previous message refers . I sent an email back to Maria expressing my concern at this whole debarcle with the elephants issue . If Patrick , Jay ( or someone else from our forum ) has any issues to raise with the Auckland Zoo re the elephant issue , I suggest that you send an email to the generic Auckland Zoo email address , with the title being " attn Maria Finnegan " I try to keep up a good relationship with Leigh , and given the fact that some zoos are not interested in responding to our queries , I hope to keep Leigh happy despite my flood of emails ..... Can I also suggest that you avoid the adjective "bloody" , as this appears to be common use in Australia , but is still somewhat an offensive word in NZ Good luck for anyone wanting to contact the Auckland Zoo about this .
wasted cows at auckland.... well, i don't know about you guys but it does bring up some questions for me. firstly why would auckland (or taronga for that matter), wish to import young breeding age females and not a male as well? so that they can hold onto a breeding animal for a valuable 4 years (though knowing zoo planning when they say 4 it means more like 6) without actually participating in a breeding program? this is especially an important issue if the elephant cow (as reports i have read have stated) is about 20. earlier in the thread we have discussed the evidence that suggests how vital it is to breed a cow before she gets into her 30's. four years is big waste of that valuable time. fact: auckland have not the facilities for breeding elephants. i suggest the responsible thing to do would be develop the facilities BEFORE you import more animals. auckland zoo has been partaking in an awful lot of development work lately, you'd think if breeding elephants were a priority (and i'm not saying it nessercarily should be for auckland) then you think the budget WOULD allow for it. i personally will be quite disgusted if i see another healthy female calf go to waste on a zoo that only wants to put it on display, though i suspect auckland are hoping to go for the (finacially) easier alternative of AI.
Auckland Zoo As much as I think that Auckland Zoo does a lot of good things in being a good zoo ( complete with breed and release programmes that have no real benefit to the zoo itself , but alot of good for the conservation of threatened NZ species ) I have to agree with your last post , Patrick . I hope you send an email direct to Maria at the Auckland Zoo . I am posting all responses that I get from any zoo correspondence onto this forum -- I dont always agree with them , but I post the reponses so that all of you that are interested can keep up with the play from NZ zoo angle . What I can verify is that Auckland current elephant enclosure will be slightly smaller than Melbournes elephant enclosure if/when it is eventually finished , and both those zoos have FAR bigger enclosures than the new Taronga Zoo elephant enclosure . Unfortunately I cannot go into detail , or divulge the nature of the (accurate ) sources as it could jepordise my current employment . What annoys me is that Taronga Park will be trying to house too many elephants in a shoebox of an enclosure . It makes me think that there is a hidden agenda or two within zoo senior management . Why cant they send the elephants to Dubbo , Monarto , and Mr Crikey's zoo in Queensland ( and persuade one of the elephants to sit on Steve to deflate some of his irritating ego ?!) just jokin' , but I am sure you know what I am trying to say ...... , try AI with the Auckland Zoos elephants , and have retired elephants on display at Taronga Park ( and hopefully give them plenty of stimulation somehow ... )
