Olifantenhuis is great Untbwe, I love the new layout with Emmen, I think the only main places that use free contact on bulls is in Kerala with Pooram elephants, or in Thailand with elephants in Kraal,
Great website, Untbwe! One would wish that there was a site like yours for every country! Keep up the good work!
All captive elephants in Asian countries are handled in free contact, incl. the bulls, that must be hundreds or even thousands. Most asian zoos also keep their bull elephants in direct contact. Same for some circusses, in Asia but also in the US and in Europe.
Yes you are quite right but, there are occasions that mahouts have special techniques working with some elephants, kind of hard to explain but yeah basically all elephants in asia,
Fore more information about elephant care, and how to manage them, look here: Elephant care manual for mahouts and camp managers
More conclusive evidence from UntBwe in the disgusting video he links to in the this thread: http://www.zoobeat.com/9/european-elephants-2-a-24277/ Here is the video: - Berlin - Bild.de I recommend everyone to protest against this via Tierpark Berlins web page: Tierpark Berlin / Metanavigation / Contact
How do you know exactly what went on there? The elephant seemed to attack the keeper, what would of happened if he didn't do anything?? I don't agree with hitting the animals to make them do what you want but defending yourself is different! Am in favour for protected contact but understand the benefits of free contact aswell.
hmmmmm, I guess particular elephants react just like particular humans, some just take things different, react differently or just take on life experince, there is just such a complex mind that lies within the elephant,
I can only add that I have not met any elephant people who work elephants in direct contact, who thinks PC is better. All of those are pretty experienced elephant keepers. The only people I have heard saying that PC is better is not elephant keepers, 1 Animal rights activists. 2. Zookeepers working elephants in PC 3. Zoo directors, curators etc. 4. Zoo fans and visitors. 99,99% of all those people lack experience in the matters they have opinions to, or even wants to decide about. We can all be very greatful that not heart surgeons, pilots, submarine captains, and other experts must follow the opinions of people who never performed their work. Free contact keepers are often refered to as conservative, primitive, and a little bit stupid. So their opinions are not very important, just anyone with a brain may have better insight in their work. I dispute this. I do not think theres any scientific IQ test performed, where the test showed that free contact elephant keepers had a significant lower IQ than other people. Also, I dont think they want to work every day, thinking they may be killed. So, why does free contact trainers still argue that this is a better method? Simply becasue, according to them, they take care of their elephant better in FC. And they represent today, most often, the most experienced elephant keepers in the world. Many of them started to work elephants for 20-30 years ago. For some strange reason, they are not considered experts. They are seldom asked for their opinion how their work could be perfomed safer. Most FC keepers had to work totally alone with 2-4 elephants, then take care of a couple of hippos, rhinos and a bunch of giraffes etc. If they had time, they were aloud to "play" with the elephants as many collegues and bosses would refer to their training. Only on circuses one could see 4-5 persons active with the elephants, with obvious differences in obedience. This can be compared to the PC stables with minimum and sometimes 3-4 keepers every day, tending their elephants. All of a sudden, if theres a transfer to PC, the zoo suddenly have money and recources. And everyone is fully understanding that the keepers must "train" the elephants. The Free contact management system is blamed as prime reason for keepers death etc. at least by people who never worked with elephants. Ive looking into statistics of killer elephants in the worlds ten oldest zoos. Out of 304 elephants, during 250 years, 7 of those elephants became mankillers. Apr 2%. Not seldom did they kill more than one person. Very few of the killed keepers were hedkeepers, or belonged to the very experienced keepers. 98% of those elephants never killed any keepers at all. As most dogs didnt do in the past. During the times when only retired old women would buy a small dwarf dog without being able to train it properly. The result, a small little devil that would harrass just anyone, was a product of a laymen who wanted to have a an animal, and brought it up in a romantic way, like a baby they just wanted to give love to. Mostly, theye even spoke baby language to the dog. In those times, almost everyone else knew that those old women were handling their animals wrong, and people could predict the consequences before they came reality. Today, those ladies mentality has become the main stream, the majority of people actually doesnt really have a clue about animals. Even of they go through zoo keepers education between 17 and 20, after having a couple of budgerigars, lizards, frogs and maybe a dog, they will lack most of the experince that an avage farmer has by 15 years. So, in the zoos today, we have a new generation of keepers, who just cant handle large animals. But they want to... So, they vote for management change to PC, and all of a sudden, after doing a weeks course on the "elephant school" in Hamburg, THEY are the experts and may have a job with elephants, while they guy who took care of them before is pushed to less prestigous jobs, or just gets sacked. After years of hard work, with mimimum of support, they are worth nothing. Free contact elephant keepers have been more or less out of control regarding their work, thet very seldom could take decisions regarding the manpower situation in the elephant house, which elephants were bought, how many elephants were kept, etc. They were just the lowest end station for decisions, and tried to survive. Which most of them did. Maybe becasue their IQ was not that low as pople would think. If you ask yourselves, and your closest collegues, friends, and employers, how many of them that grew up WORKING with animals, milking cows in a barn, battling with bulls (did you SEE a bull during the last 20 years?) cleaning up horseboxes with stallions, feeding groups of sheep with a couple of rams, or even being used to handle an ADULT breeding Rooster? It could fir sure, be claimed that a culture is dying out. But this is not the case, its getting killed. For every year persons that grew up in this culture is getting retired, sacked, or changed into job where they dont educate younger people. Theres no rule, no law written, that this must go on. Theres still a few percent of people who grew up caring for large animals, theres still some thousand people working elephants in a cassical way. They could still be communicated with. They could still be asked, how their work situation could be improved, without chaning management method. If anyone had asked THEM, how their working situation could be safer and improved in general, and not the ARAs, the public, consultants, directors, veterinarians, zoo secretaries, town councillers, local police officers etc, maybe we could have avoided some of the death accidents in FC environments. The last surviving free contact elephant trainers could still be regarded as what they are, the true experts. And have a chance to take decisons, instead of being victims for various laymen decisons, over their heads.
What about those elephant keepers that worked for many years in free contact and are now working in protected contact and who prefer protected contact (and blame the free contact system for all the deaths and injuries), are they not true experts too? And actually even more qualified to judge, since these are the people who have the experience to manage a whole herd of elephants in protected contact, long-term?? By the way, the keeper who was injured in Taronga recently was the most experienced person of the keeper team. The keeper who was almost killed in Toledo 2 years ago was also a senior keeper with many years experience. The keeper attacked in Dresden in 2010 was a senior keeper and the head keeper was present and couldn`t stop the attack. The keeper killed in Vienna in 2005 was the head keeper. And this are just a few examples from the last years (not complete, just from my memory).
I don't see how one could say that modern elephant keepers (practicing PC) aren't experts. Clearly in specializing in elephants as opposed to other species there is a connoted level of expertise. Protected contact is preferred by zoo directors and curators primarily because it reduces the liability of injury. Zoo's today are not for a select few zoo keepers to relive the glory days. Unfortunately the era of free contact in respected zoological facilities is on its way out the door. If anything zoo keepers which practice PC are more knowledgeable of modern animal handling techniques, which in my opinion makes them a more reliable expertise than that of 'old school' keepers who's FC motives tend to lie primarily in nostalgia. Your experience does not warrant the unnecessary deaths of countless other individuals, because in FC it is certain that fatalities and injuries will occur. That's a quite selfish ideal.
If anything zoo keepers which practice PC are more knowledgeable of modern animal handling techniques, which in my opinion makes them a more reliable expertise than that of 'old school' keepers who's FC motives tend to lie primarily in nostalgia. Your experience does not warrant the unnecessary deaths of countless other individuals, because in FC it is certain that fatalities and injuries will occur. That's a quite selfish ideal.[/QUOTE] This statement is so wrong and is an example of the inexperience that Dan refers to. To work anything PC doesn't by osmosis make you capable to deal with anything in FC. This comes from working it everyday just as in PC. The two deals are different and have their merit when required. FC isn't some relic from the past,it is a living thing that is used throughout the world with a variety of species,elephants included. Elephants have just become the poster child and I hope that in my lifetime that it can be recognised that both systems have a place. Just as you ask the 'old school' to embrace PC why can't you try to acknowledge FC. This argument has raged for over 20 years now and still no closer to being resolved. Yes collections have changed over and others have gone out of elephants altogether, but just so keepers are safe and directors/insurance companies can sleep and elephants are confined to the space for the remainder of their long lives, that's what really matter's. That's selfish.
Lovely rant Mr. Dan Koehl! What are your Arguments? I would be happy to engage in some serious discussion with you! First of all, you tend to over simplify the situation and bend the facts in your favour. Alone your first sentence is a lie or you only spook to people who have no experience with PC or you did not listen. There are many keepers which did the transition from FC to and PC and not all object PC like you do. If you are as clever as you claim it should be very easy for you to adapt to work elephants in PC, shouldn't it? Second, also experienced elephant keepers and even head keepers have been killed. Interestingly, minimum 2 zoos you worked in (Vienna and Dresden) have experienced elephant attacks, meaning you should know about the risks involved in FC very well. Do you want to go back to the old days and work bull elephants in FC again? I totally agree with you that there is a lot of knowledge about FC to be lost. But this is very normal with technological advancements. Useless knowledge is abandoned, or do you want us to still work as saddler, upholsterer, fireman etc. There are many lost professions due to progress. But overall the change from FC to PC is not about the keepers but about the elephants. And we talk here about a typical zoo setting, which is the housing of a breeding herd consisting of related cows and a minimum of at least one breeding bull. All the elephants you worked with in FC have been "broken" to accept you as the alpha animal. How do you do that? Is that necessary for showing elephants in zoos? Mostly elephants you worked with came from the wild and nearly none has been born in captivity. But those animals are known to be the most dangerous, as they have no respect of humans anymore. The only argument in favour of FC you list in your rant is, that animals could be walked outside of their enclosure. But this is none, as most of the zoos keeping elephants still in FC do not allow the elephants outside of their enclosure anyway. And don’t forget the situation is not black and white, we are in a transition. There might be some single older animals which profit of FC. But ultimately any elephant grown up in PC will not miss the mockery by its keeper and FC. Also PC will improve further as more and more experience is gained. I would be happy to get a response why we still need FC and what is in there for the elephants? Can it outweigh the smaller risk for the keepers, the greater freedom of the animals, smaller stress levels and the more natural interactions within the elephant herd?
Sorry, my bad. But unless the information in the press is totally wrong she WAS very experienced with working in serveral US zoos before going to Thailand and staying with the elephants selected for import to Australia for the 2 (?) years before the import actually went through and then working with them ever since they arrived in Taronga.
I am surprised that you value human life and health so little. A young person dying or being stuck in a hospital and rehab center for weeks and months is a very traumatic experience with longlasting consequences not just for the person affected, but the whole family that I`d think avoiding it should be top priority and worth some sacrificies. I certainly think keeping humans alive and healthy is way more important then taking elephants out of their enclosure for walks - which only few zoos with free contact do anyway, as someone else already pointed out. If a zoo really thinks its elephant enclosure is not adequate unless the elephants get extra exercise and stimulation, maybe they should look into enlarging the enclosure. Or send the elephants to a zoo that has the money and space to give them more space. And how do you justify keeping bull elephants in zoos, if walks are so crucial for an elephant`s wellbeing that you`d risk human life to make them possible? The elephant walks I have seen (for example in Whipsnade) reminded me of military procedures which gave the elephants no freedom because every move they made was heavily controlled by the keepers - which may be understandible for security, but I very much doubt that this is a positive experience for an elephant. Elephants parading trunk-to-tail is certainly nothing natural and has zero educational value.
I value human life,very much and to date touch wood I have had no injuries or deaths in 5 institutions on 3 continents with 40+ elephants. This has occurred because of training, both elephant and staff and also the support of the management,veterinary team, PR, maintenance and any other ancillary group associated with the institutions. You cannot put old heads on young shoulders, so an experienced barn is necessary. A section/head trainer, supported by a team of senior handlers ,with junior handlers supporting them. These are the ingredients for success as well as consistency. Sending elephants to another zoo isn't as easy as you say. Logistically it is a task but not impossible and then there is the capacity of the receiving institution including barn space. The biggest hurdle is integration. This can go wrong or will remain as separate herds for the duration. Dump your problems on someone else,great. Financially elephants cost and the money spent could serve many other species several times over so it is a difficult problem to solve. It is easy to say but not easy to do. Bull elephants can be managed in FC until a certain age that is deemed by their individual behaviour to be considered dangerous. Unfortunately due to the nature of the beast and the employment schedule expected at most zoo's, this just doesn't suit the adolescent and or mature behaviour of bull elephants. History has shown that it is achievable but under some strict guidelines and knowledgeable trainers/handlers. It is a necessary evil to manage bulls in PC and personally I'm glad we have the ability to manage them this way,they are not the same as cows. The same can be said for some dangerous cows but there still is a large population of individuals that can be managed in FC. Free contact is not just about walks, but what a great way to enrich their day. Did you hear the Whipsnade herd 'rumble' with excitement on their way to the feeding grounds and they have grounds, a choice(made by the handlers as they lead this herd) of various topography and tree species including grass. To walk such a large herd safely can be contolled by walking,not parading trunk to tail. This is a very old method of leading a large group of elephants that has circus origins when elephants were lead overland as motor vehicles weren't available to transport them. It also helps to focus the elephant on the task rather than be mischevious, which elephants are and to assist the handlers to direct their charges to their destination. It can be used around the facilty or outside if they are so trained. Elephants are in PC for a variety of reasons and each institution should be responsible for that but those that advocate FC shouldn't be maligned because of their choice just as those that choose PC, they both have a place. In the world today we have individuals that work or train big cats in FC and they aren't mandated to desist in their practise,why?. I have no beef with PC but I do object to being patronised when it has always been my choice if I work with elephants in this manner. I think you will find this is the case for 99.9% of elephant handlers across the globe. Look forward to your comment.
