Join our zoo community

Elephants or 20 sp. of smaller animals?

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by Taccachantrieri, 31 Jan 2008.

  1. Jurek7

    Jurek7 Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    19 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    3,356
    Location:
    Everywhere at once
    Hi,

    I think big and small animals are not competition, they are complementary. General public will be drawn by big animals, and maybe it will also find small one s interesting.

    I can be only sorry of Australian and new Zealand friends who apparently never seen good city exhibit for elephants or giraffes and refuse to believe they exist. And believe in safari parks which are thing of the past or niche zoo in Europe. I think within next few decades, this trend will reach your countries, too.

    About innovative exhibits - it is possible to raise interest in small animal, but large animal with innovative exhibit becomes proportionately even more interesting.
     
  2. Ara

    Ara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    5 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    1,117
    Location:
    Sydney (Northern Suburbs)
    At the moment there appear to be 5 or 6 different threads all debating the eternal question - should elephants be kept by city zoos?

    Here's my 2 cents worth..........

    A friend of mine has a little grandson who is nuts about elephants. He's got toy elephants, books about elephants etc. etc. Despite that, because they live a little way out of Sydney, the kid had never seen an elephant, so my mate collected his grandson, brought him down to Sydney and took him to Taronga.

    They went straight down to the elephant temple (this was a few years back.) As luck would have it, both elephants were inside and not visible. They waited patiently for a minute or two, then an elephant walked out.

    My mate said his grandson's eyes grew large, his jaw dropped and he got a big grin on his face. Although he knew what an elephant looked like, he had no idea of the sheer size of the animal. Apparently, he was expecting something the size of a pony!

    The point being: you can have all the books, movies etc. but nothing substitutes for seeing the living, breathing animal.

    So; do we keep elephants in city zoos for people to see, or do we do what is possibly better for the elephants and send them to the open-range zoos?

    And IS it better for them at, say, Dubbo than Taronga? They will probably have a larger enclosure (and as far as some people are concerned, that's all that matters), but can Dubbo provide the large team of dedicated keepers like the elephants have now, people who care for them, exercise them and keep them occupied and happy? Does the open range zoo have the financial resources to provide all that, or will they be, due to staffing constraints, just be left alone in their (spacious) enclosure?

    What is the purpose of these elephants? Are they in Australia to found a breeding colony (the official line, necessary to keep the rat-bag animal libbers at bay) or are they here mainly to be exhibited to the public? Both, probably, but they will be seen by a lot more people at Taronga than at Dubbo.
     
  3. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    2,433
    Location:
    melbourne, victoria, australia
    well, of course they can?!!! if the zoo board pays for it. why would you think otherwise. i'm sure the zooboard believes they take very good care of the elephants that already are at dubbo.

    its a very interesting story ara (my nephew too was obsessed with elephants as a kid, and it was a family affair taking him on his first trip to the zoo), but your almost coming across, like many others, that australians have a right to see elephants.

    says who? melbournians don't whinge that there is nowhere to see dolphins (except out in the bay). do people in adelaide curse that their beloved elephants have been taken away from them? i'm sure there are plenty of south australian kids equally enamored by elephants.

    if there were no elephants at taronga would your friend have eventually taken his grandson to dubbo instead?

    and before anyone brings up the dubbo distance thing again, i don't care!!!. thats the problem of the NSW board. thats their fault.

    another thing thats interesting is the pro-urban elephanters seem to talk "potentials" at city zoos, but take open-range zoos exactly for what they are at present.

    at the end of the day i think its unhealthy physically and mentally to keep elephants in such a small space. thus, i just can't condone it. all other factors come second to this, and i find it hard to understand that other people who appreciate animals can be so selfish as to justify it simply because they, or their friends grandson (no offense meant ara), enjoys it.

    but hey, you know, maybe the idea of driving and extra 40mins to werribee or even 5hrs to dubbo seems like nothing to someone who has travelled all the way to india, sri lanka and borneo just to do the same.

    (and i know you can't fly jay..)
     
  4. Taccachantrieri

    Taccachantrieri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    23 Jan 2008
    Posts:
    144
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    @Jurek7

    The problem is that elephants and other animals are not complementary in zoological institutions, they compete for space, staff, and money. There is a connection between the danger of lots of OLM species becoming "extinct" in North America and the projected increase in the elephant population. North American institutions even admit that space is very limited and tough decisions on which animals to keep are being made.
    A single large mammal exhibit may be more interesting than a small animal exhibit, but is it more interesting than numerous small animal exhibits?
    I don't doubt that it's possible to create a good exhibit for elephants or giraffes (at least in Zoos with warm climates) in urban Zoos, but just how much are you achieving by accomplishing this? It had better be more than substantial because the cost can be enormous - 39 million and several acres for the planned elephant exhibit at Los Angelos Zoo. Some smaller Zoos could be created or completely renovated with that kind of money.
     
  5. jay

    jay Well-Known Member 20+ year member

    Joined:
    8 Jan 2004
    Posts:
    1,920
    Location:
    brisbane, qld, australia
    In Australia at least I think the zoos would have been better off to combine their efferts into buying a large property near to a major population area (anywhere bsically in the triangle between Mel/Syd/Can) and created an elephant sanctuary there. Combine the two groups of elephants, open it to the public, then extra bulls could have been housed at the city zoos, for those like Aras nephew and my own.
    Ny neing within the triangle mentioned above the majority of Australians would be within rechable distance.
    I also get where Pat is going with the idea of the 'right' to see elephants and if I think about it dispationtly I agree with him. We have no real 'right' to see any animal, oh but I would be very sad indeed if I had been unable to see an elephant.
    Tha's why, even though I understand and accept that Australia will always have a limited range of exotic animals in our zoos, I am still jeolous of European and North American zoo goers.
     
  6. Coquinguy

    Coquinguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2005
    Posts:
    1,757
    Location:
    australia
    im still happy with the conitions the elephants at taronga zoo are in. ill be happier when the new section opens and id be happier still with a further expansion.
    but watching the animals the other day, they seemed incredibly content and well adjusted.
     
  7. Taccachantrieri

    Taccachantrieri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    23 Jan 2008
    Posts:
    144
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    Thanks for the support NZ Jeremy, Snowleopard, Sun Wukong, and Patrick.

    I’m actually finding out a lot more about some of my own views by writing these replies. Since initially posting this thread my opinion that Zoos should exhibit more smaller animals has strengthened (which I don’t think was implicit or at least wasn’t originally meant to be apparent). I am no longer mainly interested in small and medium mammals, birds, fish and amphibians. Now, I believe that all the principles supporting their increased exhibition apply very strongly to invertebrates as well. The Tama Zoo, in particular, provides a strong argument for this.
    BTW tell me what you think about the somewhat superfluous history



    Since 1966 the Tama Zoo, in Japan has had large exhibits of insects (Minoru Yajima 1990). In the beginning the majority of this space was devoted to grasshoppers which were kept primarily to feed birds and mammals. Over the years the popularity of their insect displays increased and they continued to add exhibit space.
    To celebrate their 30th anniversary the Zoo built a new insectarium called “Insect Ecological Land”. This complex spans 2,480 square metres of floor space. That space would be insufficient by WAZA standards for a herd of 3 female elephants with their young. In that space at Tama Zoo 94 insects (54,837 individuals), 10 colonies of bees and ants, and 20 species of frogs, lizards, spiders, and scorpions (2,000 individuals) are housed comfortably. The majority of the species could likely sustain their own genetically diverse populations without the need for extensive reproductive management if additionally founders were introduced regularly.
    An important feature of this exhibit complex is the central walk-through 1140 square metre “insectopia”. Live plants grow under a ceiling that reaches up to 16m high in 17 different habitats. Nothing separates the insects from the visitors which allow interactive experiences that are impossible with large mammals except in a heavily controlled setting. The insects are prsevented from escaping by gusts of air.
    In the wings of the “Insect Ecological Land” visitors can view butterfly propagation areas where over 60 individuals emerge per day. There are also nocturnal displays of bioluminescent species. A mini-theatre for lectures, videos, and interactive displays complete the experience.
    Tough importation laws in Japan prohibit the importation of herbivorous or omnivorous insects. As such the “Insect Ecological Land” is comprised mainly of native species. Considering the beauty and diversity of tropical insects a country with less stringent controls has the potential to create a more interesting and potentially captivating insect exhibit.
    In 1988, the year of the “Insect Ecological Lands” opening, attendance swelled by 20%. This figure is all the more impressive considering that in 1990 the Zoo had attendance of 1.4 million and that prior to this opening they already had a butterfly house, grasshopper greenhouse, and 1104 square metre main insect building.
    “Insect Ecological Lands” cost the equivalent of only 5.133 million US dollars. If you generously double this cost for inflation and presume the construction costs would be double in America (I have no idea if they actually would be) you still have an exhibit that is half the cost of the proposed elephant exhibit at the Los Angelos Zoo.
    Before this exhibit opening the first exhibit viewers saw was monkey island (29%), followed by koalas (23%), lions (12%), and insects (10%). After “Insect Ecological Lands” opened the second highest percentage (23%) of visitors started their day at the Zoo at this exhibit. Visitor traffic was altered so much that design of service features of the surrounding area, like gift shops, was reviewed.

    Interest in insect displays is not limited to Japan. Visitors to the Bronx Zoo in New York have also demonstrated strong interest in invertebrate displays that prove “…People are fascinated with and ready to see and learn about these amazing animals” (Paul Zabarauskus and Frank InDiviglio 1990). Insects in the Jungle World at the Bronx Zoo elicited visitor responses of disbelief, bewilderment, fright, and amazement. Find the Bug created congregations of visitors.
    Additionally, to again quote Paul Zabarauskus and Frank InDiviglio (1990), “Invertebrates create enormous educational opportunities on a seemingly endless list of topics and are instrumental in bringing awareness to the plight of the rainforests and promoting conservation”.


    Controlled environments, division of space, and a wide range of equipment utilities are required for some invertebrates, even considering these costs most invertebrate displays are still relatively cheap to build, manage and maintain (Kelly P. Pearce et al. 1990).
    The ease of acquiring additional founders in-situ without having much of an affect on wild populations (high potential replacement rate) or arousing the disapproval of animal welfare groups would be a big asset to maintaining population numbers and genetic diversity.

    Involving local people in breeding and trading of invertebrates, if done in a responsible way, could introduce more founders into captive populations and give locals an economic incentive not to destroy wild habitat (Jacques Pierre 2004). Increased habitat preservation conserves general biodiversity.

    A lot of this data is in International Zoo Yearbook (1990), a publication surely read by many in the zoological profession. Evidently, there are some forces holding directors and curators back from developing invertebrate displays because there are exceptionally few Zoos exhibiting them.
    Part of the problem is that it is difficult to commit only a small amount to invertebrates and have an advantageous result. Small glass terrariums unimaginatively designed, separated from plants, and without any good ecological interpretation, look like jewel box exhibits. It’s also impossible to have the proper equipment or specialized invertebrate staff for a couple of species without large costs.
    Another concern is that individuals who are more interested in invertebrates than vertebrates might not regularly visit current zoological institutions that almost exclusively house vertebrates. When a Zoo samples their visitors they are inherently sampling a biased base of their potential audience.
    Repeat visitors develop a connection to the animals their institution holds. In fact if you were to ask what peoples favourite animals were it would somewhat be a reflection of the collection of the Zoos they visit. If they were exposed to invertebrates over a longer time they would likely start to develop a deeper attraction to them.
    Notoriety may also be preventing some Zoos from exhibiting invertebrates. Having big animals gives you a big sometimes international reputation. However, this doesn’t necessarily result in higher admittance as seen in the Montreal Biodome and Insectarium versus Toronto Zoo attendance. Few people are going to change their travel plans just to see a couple of large charismatic species at a Zoo especially when they are at pretty much every other large Zoo. Enthrall the local population with more and better exhibits while enhancing your ability to educate and promote conservation and you will see a more meaningful result. This reputation will leak down as online assessments and reviews improve and local people recommend good Zoos to visitors, especially family members. In turn these visitors will recommend these Zoos to other people where they live.
    The Zoo world has evolved considerably over time, but like any organism a stalemate in a period of change will lead to irrelevance.



    Kelly P. Pearce, Clarke, D. Robertson, M. and C. Andrews. 1990. The display, culture and conservation of invertebrates at London Zoo. International Zoo Yearbook 30(1): 21-29.

    Jacques, P.. 2004. The trade in butterflies and other insects. Bulletin de la Societe Zoologique de France 129(1-2): 59-66.

    Yajima, M.. 1990. The Insect Ecological Land at Tama Zoo. International Zoo Yearbook 30(1): 7-15.

    Zabarauskas, P. and F. InDiviglio. 1990. The unseen multitude:design and management of invertebrate displays at the New York Bronx Zoo. International Zoo Yearbook 30(1): 15-20.
     
    Last edited: 10 Feb 2008
  8. NZ Jeremy

    NZ Jeremy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,086
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Wow, another very interesting post, I again agree wholeheartedly with you...

    A few things:
    Is that 54,000 + live insects..? That must surely be one of the biggest collections in zoos..?

    LA Zoo seems to have a thing with spending extraordinary amounts of money for not especially outstanding exhibits (Gorillas)...

    Here is some other places you may find interesting:

    Tropicarium Kolmården - Sharks, venomous snakes, alligators, birds and monkeys - 2000m2 and well over 100 species of fish, mammals and reptiles...

    Exhibit - 155m2! and over 60 species of Amphibians...
     
  9. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    2,433
    Location:
    melbourne, victoria, australia
    absolutely, i think there are many of us that can say the same. when i first joined this forum over 3 years ago i was starting to become more and more curious about the zoo i so loved to visit. i was excited about it finally constructing a new elephant exhibit and was all for bringing in a herd of elephants to join them. it was blind love, and the only thing that upset me was the idea of my zoo not having some of my favorite animals......
     
  10. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    7,586
    Location:
    Abbotsford, B.C., Canada
    I find that as I've gotten older I am far more critical of zoo exhibits than ever before. The design, layout, foliage, shade, etc of any enclosure is analyzed as I stroll around a zoo, and it's difficult to praise substandard exhibits that frequently are too small. Seeing bears pacing back and forth at particular zoos, and then visiting the same zoo two years later and seeing the same damn bear pacing in the exact same way is sort of heartbreaking for a zoo enthusiast. It is tough to see the poor conditions that are still prevalent in even the very best zoos, and this forum has opened my eyes to what other zoo fans think.

    There are those individuals whom I tend to agree with most of the time, while others still defend zoo practices that I'd consider abhorrent. It is all part of a learning curve, and the good news is that every year that goes by sees an overall improvement of the world's zoos. It seems like at least once a month there is a zoo somewhere on this planet that announces plans for a new, shiny exhibit.
     
  11. Ara

    Ara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    5 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    1,117
    Location:
    Sydney (Northern Suburbs)
    I know what you mean, snowleopard.

    When I was a child I was totally uncritical of zoos and circuses. As I got older, I still enjoyed looking at the animals, but became troubled by the accommodation some of them had to contend with.

    I still remember a little titi monkey (species unknown) which eked out a lonely existence in what was essentially a dolls house (in design and size) with a wire front on it at Taronga many years ago. That's when, as a kid, I started to think that somehow it wasn't right. That monkey's been dead for years, but it still troubles me.

    I hope I'm not preceived to be in the camp of those who defend abhorrent practices, as you put it. I regard myself as a realist, and I believe that zoos are (slowly) improving.
    Even though I have been challenged for defending the keeping of elephants in city zoos(here we go again) I know that they have a much better life now than did Taronga's old bull from the 1960s, the inappropriately named Gandhi, who spent his life continually chained up by both front feet. (I've seen him spend a lot of time lifting the chains and testing them with his trunk. If his disposition wasn't sour to start with, that would have been enough to do it.)
     
  12. NZ Jeremy

    NZ Jeremy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,086
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    I agree with you on that and I find it a very hopeful thing...

    I don't think there are any animals that cannot be looked after well, in my opinion its a question of resources, space and money...
     
  13. Jurek7

    Jurek7 Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    19 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    3,356
    Location:
    Everywhere at once
    What species of smaller animals would you like to introduced (more) to zoo conservation plans?
     
  14. NZ Jeremy

    NZ Jeremy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,086
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Who are you talking too..?

    I'd personally like to see in Australasia more Numbats, Yellow Tailed Rock Wallabies, Corrobee Southern Frog (sp?), Kiwi, Short Tailed Bats, any of the 4 NZ native frogs, on and on, the list of vulnerable or endangered small animals here is large...
     
  15. Jurek7

    Jurek7 Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    19 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    3,356
    Location:
    Everywhere at once
    Well, everybody. And for non-australian animals?
     
  16. NZ Jeremy

    NZ Jeremy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    1,086
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Well anything really which is readily available, a number of zoos will carry, can be held cheaply and is vulnerable or endangered, basically anything which is realistic and on these lists:

    IUCN Red List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (Refer to the critically endangered, endangered and vulnerable...)

    Many, many of these are amphibians and I think exhibits such as the Chemitz Vivarium I linked earlier in the thread can be cheap, attractive and have the real ability to preserve genetic material of a large number of species in diverse enough amounts... A naturalistic plaudarium that can hold 4 - 6 adult amphibians can be built for under $1000 (in NZ) and uses $5 - 10 of power and not much keepers time (I am biased as I love these type of exhibits)... The WAZA has declared 2008 the year of the frog..!
     
  17. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    2,433
    Location:
    melbourne, victoria, australia
    i agree, as an amphibian fanatic, i wanna see lots, lots, lots more endangered frogs (and salamanders if they live in your part of the world) in zoos. these are animals in dire straights, presenting a good platform for conservation of waterways (which to protect properly, means raising issues that spill over across the board - substitutes for chemical fertilisers, irrigation issues, water recycling, preserving terrestrial riverbank vegetaion etc. - all issues that benefit other conservation initiatives).

    so yeah. more endangered frogs.
     
  18. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7 May 2005
    Posts:
    3,433
    Location:
    Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
    Is there any zoo in this country that has a large amphibian exhibit with a big range of species?, Is there to be a bigger focus on amphibians in the furture in some of our major zoos or even in some of our smaller wildlife parks.
     
  19. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    2,433
    Location:
    melbourne, victoria, australia
    melbourne has a frog house. its was built as an add-on to the side of the reptile house and has a frog pond out the front.

    its small, but really cool, i think.

    behind the tanks, the keeper area is actually divided into two rooms with one side heated for tropical species and the other chilled for temperate victrorian frogs.

    one glass window allows visitors to look into these rooms where the bulk of the collection is kept on shelves.

    there are green tree frogs, dwarf tree frogs, dying, blue and splashback poison dart frogs and of course southern corroboree frogs. all in all a great exhibit and the zoo was planning on adding more exotics to the collection, but i imagine it will need to expand the house to put them all on display.

    certainly, i think it would be worth it.
     
  20. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7 May 2005
    Posts:
    3,433
    Location:
    Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
    I hope so Pat, It sounds really cool, I would like to see some south American Glass frogs in a zoo, interesting species.