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Europe's Top 100 Zoos and Aquariums?

Discussion in 'Europe - General' started by amur leopard, 24 Dec 2019.

  1. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    I was reading @snowleopard's thread America's Top 100 Zoos & Aquariums and following the recent discussions on a book on the subject of Europe's Top 100 Zoos and Aquariums and the ratio zoos to aquariums, I was interested to see what everyone thinks on this and which institutions they would include.

    I have only visited ~60 zoos (all except for 2 in Europe) and am therefore quite inexperienced compared to most on this site, so my list will probably be very approximate and I will most likely forget some of the smaller collections in more obscure areas of Europe.
    Nevertheless, here is my attempt, with 90 zoos and 10 aquariums:

    Prague
    Chester
    Berlin Zoo
    Berlin Tierpark
    Rotterdam
    Antwerp
    Beauval
    Pairi Daiza
    Munich
    Zurich
    Burgers
    Vienna
    Artis
    Copenhagen
    Cologne
    Planckendael
    Plzen
    Ostrava
    Helsinki
    Moscow
    Bristol
    Nordens Ark
    Bioparc Valencia
    Wroclaw
    Vincennes
    Nurnberg
    Wilhelma
    Leipzig
    Hagenbeck
    Frankfurt
    Paris Menagerie
    London
    Budapest
    Jihlava
    Odense
    Helsinki
    Lisbon
    Loro Parque
    Barcelona
    Madrid
    L'Oceanografic
    Valencia
    Doue
    La Rochelle
    CERZA
    Reserve de la Haute Touche
    Parc des Felins
    Nausicaa
    Pyrenees
    Peaugres
    Amneville
    Thoiry
    La Fleche
    Mulhouse
    Howletts
    Edinburgh
    HWP
    Marwell
    Whipsnade
    Colchester
    Banham
    YWP
    Durrell WC
    Hamerton
    Innsbruck
    Salzburg
    Olmense
    Usti nad Labem
    Zlin
    Olomouc
    Brno
    Liberec
    Odense
    Givskud
    Copenhagen aquarium
    Randers
    Aalborg
    Munster
    Rheine
    Walsrode
    Duisburg
    Hannover
    Dresden
    Dortmund
    Heidelberg
    Madgeburg
    Osnabruck
    Wuppertal
    Dublin
    Bioparco di Roma
    Acquario di Genova
    Warsaw
    Basel
    Bratislava
    Kolmarden
    Moscow
    Moskvarium

    Starting with the 30 obvious ones, I came up with this preliminary list:

    Prague, Chester, Berlin Zoo, Berlin Tierpark, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Beauval, Pairi, Munich, Zurich, Burgers, Vienna, Artis, Copenhagen, Cologne, Planckendael, Plzen, Ostrava, Helsinki, Moscow, Bristol, Nordens Ark, Bioparc Valencia, Wroclaw, Zoo de Vincennes, Nurnberg, Wilhelma, Leipzig, Hagenbeck, Frankfurt.

    Then, I added Paris Menagerie and London for history and (still) good collections. Budapest, Jihlava, Odense, Helsinki and Lisbon also went on. Then, now going country by country, I started with Portugal. I added Oceanario de Lisboa and the Vasco de Gama Aquarium, and put Lagos on the 'waiting list'.
    Then for Spain. I added Loro Parque, Barcelona, Valencia, Madrid and L'Oceanografic. Nothing from Iceland seemed good enough to make even the waiting list :(.
    In France, I added Doue, La Rochelle, CERZA, Reserve de la Haute-touche, Parc des Felins, Nausicaa, Pyrenees, Peaugres, Amneville, Thoiry, La Fleche and Mulhouse. I also put Montpellier on the waiting list due to its great Amazon house as well as Biotropica for the same reason.
    Next, the UK. This one is a lot harder because there are so many zoos on the gallery. I chose Howletts, HWP, Edinburgh, Marwell, Colchester, Whipsnade, Hamerton, YWP, Banham and Durrell Wildlife Consevancy with Living Coasts, Longleat, Blackpool, Exmoor, Dartmoor and Paignton in the waiting list.
    Next was Austria: Innsbruck and a hesitant Salzburg were added.
    In Belarus, Minsk made the waiting list.
    In Belgium, Olmense made the main list.
    In Croatia, Zagreb made the waiting list.
    In Cyprus, Pafos made the waiting list.
    In the Czech republic, Olomouc, Usti nad Labem, Liberec, Zlin and Brno made the main list.
    In Denmark, Odense, Aalborg, Givskud, Copenhagen aquarium and Randers made the list.
    In Estonia, Tallinn made the waiting list quite high up.
    In Germany, Munster, Hannover, Rheine, Walsrode, Duisburg, Dresden, Krefeld, Dortmund, Heidelberg, Osnabruck, Wuppertal and Magdeburg
    In Ireland, Dublin made the list.
    In Italy, only Roma and Genova aquarium.
    In Poland, Warsaw made the list and Gdansk made the waiting list.
    In Slovakia only Bratislava made the list.
    In Switzerland, Basel made the list.
    In Sweden, only Kolmarden made the list.
    In Russia, of course Moscow and its Moskvarium.

    And that hit 100 perfectly!
     
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  2. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Thanks to @amur leopard for coming up with the initial list...very interesting! If someone was less concerned about geographical representation, then I would guess that a lot of zoos could be eliminated. Tallinn in Estonia, Liberec in Czechia, Minsk in Belarus, Olmense in Belgium (now known as Pakawi Park), Zagreb in Croatia and Pafos in Cyprus all seem very unlikely to make any kind of European 'best' zoos list. Perhaps Tallinn would be the most logical option out of that group, but the others are highly doubtful.

    In the United Kingdom I would probably also eliminate Dartmoor, Banham, Longleat, Living Coasts (very good but only a couple of acres), Howletts (anti-zoo these days!) and even Marwell might not be guaranteed a spot.

    A few days ago I took a stab at conjuring up a list of the cream of the crop in terms of European zoos. One thing to remember, before anyone comments, is that if 50 zoo nerds each produced a Top 100 list then there would literally be 50 different versions. :p Mine only includes 6 aquariums (in bold) and therefore a few more aquatic facilities would be nice additions. There are a whopping 27 German zoos, which seems excessive, but I couldn't choose any to boot off and I feel that those German zoos are probably all there on merit. Other opinions are welcome and it would be intriguing to see if a joint consortium of zoo enthusiasts could agree on 100 establishments.

    Europe’s Top 100 Zoos & Aquariums

    Austria – Alpenzoo Innsbruck-Tirol (Innsbruck)
    Austria - Salzburg Zoo (Anif)
    Austria - Schonbrunn Zoo (Vienna)
    Belgium – Antwerp Zoo (Antwerp)
    Belgium - Pairi Daiza (Brugelette)
    Belgium - Planckendael (Mechelen)
    Czech. Rep. – Dvur Kralove Zoo (Dvur Kralove nad Labem)
    Czech. Rep. - Ostrava Zoo (Ostrava)
    Czech. Rep. - Plzen Zoo (Plzen)
    Czech. Rep. - Prague Zoo (Prague)
    Czech. Rep. - Zlin Zoo (Zlin)
    Denmark – Aalborg Zoo (Aalborg)
    Denmark – Den Bla Planet (The Blue Planet Aquarium)
    Denmark – Copenhagen Zoo (Frederiksberg)
    Denmark - Givskud Zoo (Givskud)
    Denmark - Odense Zoo (Odense)
    Finland – Helsinki Zoo (Helsinki)
    France – Beauval Zoo (Saint-Aignan)
    France – Bioparc de Doue La Fontaine (Doue-la-Fontaine)
    France - La Fleche Zoo (La Fleche)
    France - Mulhouse Zoo (Mulhouse)
    France – Zoo D’Amneville (Amneville)
    France - Zoo de La Palmyre (Les Mathes)
    France – Nausicaa Aquarium
    France - Paris Menagerie (Paris) - historic value
    France - Paris Zoo (Paris)
    Germany - Allwetterzoo Munster (Munster)
    Germany – Augsburg Zoo (Augsburg)
    Germany – Tierpark Berlin (Berlin)
    Germany – Berlin Zoo (Berlin)
    Germany – Cologne Zoo (Cologne)
    Germany – Dortmund Zoo (Dortmund)
    Germany – Dresden Zoo (Dresden)
    Germany – Duisburg Zoo (Duisburg)
    Germany – Erfurt Zoo (Erfurt)
    Germany – Erlebnis Zoo Hannover (Hannover)
    Germany – Frankfurt Zoo (Frankfurt)
    Germany – Tierpark Hagenbeck (Hamburg)
    Germany – Halle Zoo (Halle)
    Germany – Heidelberg Zoo (Heidelberg)
    Germany – Karlsruhe Zoo (Karlsruhe)
    Germany - Krefeld Zoo (Krefeld)
    Germany - Leipzig Zoo (Leipzig)
    Germany - Magdeburg Zoo (Magdeburg)
    Germany - Hellabrunn Zoo (Munich)
    Germany - Nuremberg Zoo (Nuremberg)
    Germany - Opel Zoo (Kronberg)
    Germany - Osnabruck Zoo (Osnabruck)
    Germany - Rostock Zoo (Rostock)
    Germany – Weltvogelpark Walsrode (Walsrode)
    Germany - Wilhelma Zoo (Stuttgart)
    Germany - Wuppertal Zoo (Wuppertal)
    Germany – ZOOM Erlebniswelt Gelsenkirchen (Gelsenkirchen)
    Greece – Attica Zoological Park (Spata)
    Hungary – Budapest Zoo (Budapest)
    Hungary - Sosto Zoo (Sosto)
    Ireland – Dublin Zoo (Dublin)
    Italy – Acquario de Genova (Aquarium of Genoa)
    Italy – Parco Natura Viva (Bussolengo)
    Jersey – Jersey Zoo (Trinity)
    Netherlands – Dierenpark Amersfoort (Amersfoort)
    Netherlands – Apenheul Primate Park (Apeldoorn)
    Netherlands – Artis Amsterdam Royal Zoo (Amsterdam)
    Netherlands – Beekse Bergen Safaripark (Hilvarenbeek)
    Netherlands - Blijdorp Zoo (Rotterdam)
    Netherlands – Royal Burgers’ Zoo (Arnhem)
    Netherlands – GaiaZOO (Kerkrade)
    Netherlands - Ouwehands Dierenpark (Rhenen)
    Netherlands - Wildlands Adventure Zoo (Emmen)
    Norway - Kristiansand Zoo (Kristiansand)
    Poland – Gdansk Zoo (Gdansk)
    Poland - Poznan Nowe (Poznan)
    Poland - Warsaw Zoo (Warsaw)
    Poland - Wroclaw Zoo (Wroclaw)
    Portugal – Oceanorio de Lisboa (Lisbon Oceanarium)
    Portugal - Lisbon Zoo (Lisbon)
    Russia – Moscow Zoo (Moscow)
    Russia – Moskvarium
    Slovakia – Bojnice Zoo (Bojnice)
    Slovakia – Bratislava Zoo (Bratislava)
    Spain – Barcelona Zoo (Barcelona)
    Spain - Bioparc Valencia (Valencia)
    Spain – L’Oceanografic (Valencia Oceanografic)
    Spain - Loro Parque (Tenerife)
    Spain - Madrid Zoo (Madrid)
    Sweden – Boras Djurpark (Boras)
    Sweden – Kolmarden Zoo (Kolmarden)
    Sweden – Nordens Ark (Hunnebostrand)
    Sweden – Parken Zoo (Eskilstuna)
    Switzerland – Basel Zoo (Basel)
    Switzerland - Zurich Zoo (Zurich)
    United Kingdom – Bristol Zoo Gardens (Bristol)
    United Kingdom – Chester Zoo (Chester)
    United Kingdom – Colchester Zoo (Colchester)
    United Kingdom – Edinburgh Zoo (Edinburgh)
    United Kingdom – London Zoo (London)
    United Kingdom – Paignton Zoo (Paignton)
    United Kingdom – Twycross Zoo (Warwickshire)
    United Kingdom – Whipsnade Zoo (Whipsnade)
    United Kingdom - Yorkshire Wildlife Park (Branton)
     
    Last edited: 25 Dec 2019
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  3. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    So easily dismissed on the grounds of size when you haven't actually been ;) :p it's small but definitely deserving of consideration for such a plaudit! That said, the biggest UK omission on your part is easily HWP.

    Conversely I think both of you are automatically including a few collections on the basis of their size or location alone which I think few if any would consider one of the best in Europe - Bratislava, Yorkshire Wildlife Park or Madrid for instance.
     
  4. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    @TeaLovingDave I forgot about Highland Wildlife Park...surely it can bump out one of the 100 zoos on my list. As for Living Coasts, I'll visit one day and maybe I'll love the place, but it seems like the perfect example of a zoo that is difficult to categorize. By contrast, Madrid is famous, large, popular, filled with ABC animals...and yet also with many outdated sections. Which zoo would make a subjective 'best' list? There's not an easy answer to that question, but Living Coasts seems like a perfect candidate for a 'Top 20 specialist collections and smaller zoos' at the back of a book. As for a full essay of several pages...that would be extremely doubtful.

    In the American Top 100 zoo book, Tim and I made sure to include Central Park Zoo. It is a place that has immense historical value, more than a million annual visitors and a solid level of exhibitry as essentially everything is 30 years old or newer. It is the smallest zoo in our book and yet quadruple the size of Living Coasts and with a much more varied animal collection.

    I'd love for more zoo nerds to come up with a list of Europe's best zoos and aquariums because there might be the emergence of the same 80 or so zoos on every single list and that would be a consistent development. It's not as difficult as people think, as there are at least 70 mortal locks that would appear on everyone's lists and then it would be cool to debate the final choices. The key is for people to be fairly objective and not choose totally bizarre, out-of-left-field choices just for shock value. (I don't want to see Noah's Ark Zoo Farm anywhere!:D) A friend of mine sent me his European list this morning and it had 88 of the same zoos that I had...meaning that we now have the final dozen to debate over. :p
     
  5. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member

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    I find it weird to take Living Coasts' small size into consideration when that wouldn't be a factor for other aquariums surely. Like many aquariums Living Coasts is a building with multiple floors to it, so the fact that it's only a few acres doesn't really matter much. Species diversity-wise, of course zoos like Central Park beat them but wouldn't that be the case for all aquariums? As someone who's visited I'd say it definitely deserves a spot on the list well before collections such as Krefeld, who lacks a single exhibit which could match the quality of the string of outdoor aviaries sat atop Living Coasts.

    As for HWP, it's more deserving of a spot in the UK list than Twycross, Colchester, and especially Edinburgh. It's one of the best collections I've ever seen whose greatness as a specialist collection is rivaled only by the likes of ASDM.

    As a final, somewhat pedantic point, Poznan Nowe is the specific zoo you'll be referring to. "Poznan Zoo" can refer to both the old (Stare) and the new (Nowe) zoos.

    ~Thylo
     
  6. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, this rather illustrates a difference in our philosophies on this matter; whether a collection has to be subject to a full essay of several pages to be worthy of being deemed a top zoo :p after all, one could probably write a very long essay indeed on South Lakes or Noah's Ark Zoo Farm!

    Another difference; that a small and specialised collection is only worthy of inclusion in a separate list rather than the main list UNLESS it is an aquarium, in which case you deem it worthy of being reserved a place in the upper echelons ;) you're not necessarily wrong to do so of course, but it's a notable aspect of your philosophy!
     
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  7. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    And...now I remember why Tim and I didn't tell a soul about our final 100 list before the book was published. We made a pact to not divulge the details online until the first 100 copies had been shipped to customers, as there would be zoo nerds haggling over each selection as if it were the essence of life itself. "Oh no, you included Buffalo Zoo in the book...the sky is falling!":p We didn't want to unleash a whole bunch of Chicken Little characters onto the forum.

    Living Coasts is probably better than Krefeld as I didn't even particularly like that German zoo and so if Living Coasts is deserving as one of Europe's best than that's totally cool...especially if it was classified as an aquarium. I was thinking from an objective perspective that a mid-sized German zoo would be a better candidate than a 1.4-acre Torquay attraction, but size clearly isn't everything and so feel free to add in Living Coasts on your own lists...if you make them. The whole point of this exercise is to get others to participate with their own Top 100 compilations and then after at least 10 zoo enthusiasts make a worthwhile contribution to this thread a pattern will begin to emerge in regards to obvious choices.
     
  8. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    I have been to Living Coasts and I really loved it. It was small but packed with life and lifers :D

    As for essays, one could probably write a couple of 1000-page volumes on London zoo and still not get to the bottom of it. On the other hand, newer zoos might not have that history but if you were writing purely on the subject of their current collection and standard of exhibitry thereof, it would easily turn out to be a longer essay's than London's.

    If I found myself writing a book on the Top 100 and having to write a 3-4 page essay on Living Coasts, I probably would be able to, because as TLD said, small size does not imply small character - in fact often the opposite is the case.

    And finally on HWP. Having also visited, I enjoyed it more than Chester (I know, I know :eek:), even though Chester is admittedly the better zoo. So yes, it almost made it onto my starting 30 - Frankfurt only just snuck in before it and was certainly the first I thought of to go through from the UK after Chester.

    Lastly, I do admit I might have had a slight prejudice in French and British zoos die to my regular visits to many of them, but despite Germany having so many zoos, I don't think that many deserve to make it in front of other collections. I think some of the more quaint collections have much nicer enclosures for their animals. For example, I loved the animal park in the Pyrenees with its caprid walkthrough exhibit and the Parc des Felins is also fantastic for the cats.
     
  9. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member

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    I don't find that to be a very ridiculous statement tbh. I can't recall which I enjoyed more on my initial visits but HWP is very good at inspiring awe. I know I enjoyed HWP more than ASDM even, though both collections are superb!

    Of course, ones personal enjoyment during a visit is a rather subjective thing anyway.

    ~Thylo
     
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  10. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    For the record, I would be very interested to hear what your previously-mentioned c.60 European zoos visited were, in order to compare it to your proposed top 100 :)
     
  11. Hvedekorn

    Hvedekorn Well-Known Member

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    For Denmark, I'd substitute Aalborg for Ree Park. While Aalborg is not bad, it's mostly what you could call a "cookie-cutter zoo". It's very small and has a small collection that largely focuses on ABC's in (for the most part) fairly standard exhibits. While Ree Park also has a very small collection with 95% large mammals, their exhibits are much larger and more innovative.
     
  12. ThomasNotTom

    ThomasNotTom Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Whilst I'm sure Noahs Ark isn't to your taste @snowleopard , I really don't think it's as bad as many people make it out to be. Admittedly no, it wouldn't make Europes "Top 100"... but its by no means a bad zoo ;) Out of interest, when you eventually make it to the UK, do you plan on visiting Noahs?

    Also, Merry Christmas everyone!
     
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  13. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Nice to know that whilst saying you would be interested in a debate/discussion on the matter, you view anyone who wants to debate your own logic as a "bunch of Chicken Little characters" :p

    I'm not entirely comfortable coming up with a top 100 on my own, given the fact that although I am now reasonably well-travelled on the continent there are still quite a few notable gaps in my experience (all of France, all of Scandinavia, much of eastern and southeast Europe) but I reckon I can make a good shot at compiling a lower number of top collections based on my own experience, with a few no-brainers thrown in from those areas where my experience falters. To be honest I think that were a Top 100 European Zoos/Aquariums book ever to be written, it would have to be a collaborative effort between rather more than two individuals, even if one of them was a behemoth like Tim Brown!

    But anyhow, my "Not Top 100, But Also Not Including Anything I Don't Know Enough About To Make A Judgement On, And Leaving Space For Those Gaps", with collections I haven't actually visited in italics.

    AUSTRIA

    1) Alpenzoo Innsbruck
    2) Tiergarten Schönbrunn
    3) Haus des Meeres (Vienna)


    BELGIUM

    4) Zoo Antwerpen
    5) Pairi Daiza
    6) Zoo Planckendael

    CROATIA

    7) Zoo Zagreb

    CZECH REPUBLIC

    8) Zoopark Chomutov
    9) Safari Park Dvůr Králové
    10) Zoo Jihlava
    11) Zoo Ostrava
    12) Zoo Plzen
    13) Zoo Praha

    DENMARK

    14) Den Blå Planet
    15) Zoo Kobenhavn


    FRANCE

    16) Jardin Zoologique de la Citadelle de Besançon
    17) Jardin des Plantes
    18) Zoo Vincennes
    19) ZooParc de Beauval

    20) Parc des Felins

    GERMANY

    21) Tierpark Berlin
    22) Zoo Berlin
    23) Zoo Dresden
    24) Aquazoo Dusseldorf
    25) Zoo Frankfurt
    26) Tierpark Hagenbeck
    27) Erlebnis-Zoo Hannover
    28) Zoo Köln
    29) Zoo Leipzig
    30) Bayerwald-Tierpark
    31) Zoo Magdeburg
    32) Tierpark Hellabrunn
    33) Tiergarten Nürnberg
    34) Naturzoo Rheine
    35) Wilhelma
    36) Weltvogelpark Walsrode
    37) Zoo Wuppertal

    HUNGARY

    38) Zoo Budapest

    NETHERLANDS

    39) Apenheul
    40) Burger's Zoo
    41) Artis
    42) Dierenpark Ouwehands
    43) Diergaarde Blijdorp
    44) Safaripark Beekse Bergen

    POLAND

    45) Zoo Wroclaw
    46) Zoo Warsaw
    47) Poznan Nowe

    PORTUGAL

    48) Aquario Vasco da Gama
    49) Lisboa Oceanario
    50) Zoo Lisboa

    SPAIN

    51) L'Oceanografic
    52) Loro Parque

    SWITZERLAND

    53) Tierpark Dählhölzli
    54) Zoo Zurich
    55) Zoo Basel


    UNITED KINGDOM / CHANNEL ISLANDS

    56) Bristol Zoo
    57) Cotswold Wildlife Park
    58) Chester Zoo
    59) ZSL Whipsnade Zoo
    60) ZSL London Zoo
    61) Hamerton Zoo
    62) Newquay Zoo
    63) Living Coasts
    64) Slimbridge WWT
    65) Jersey Zoo
    66) Scottish Owl Centre
    67) Highland Wildlife Park
     
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  14. Shirokuma

    Shirokuma Well-Known Member

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    I would say the fact that Noah’s Ark Zoo Farm is completely unscientific and run by religious fundamentalists makes it very much a bad zoo.

    A zoo I would definitely add to the list is Tierpark Dählhölzli in Bern.
     
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  15. ThomasNotTom

    ThomasNotTom Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Have you ever been? Have you spoken to any of the incredibly hard working keepers that work there? I've seen first hand the great care and respect that the members of staff at NAZF have towards the animals; some of the enclosures are fantastic, and they do great work for multiple EEPs. It is wholly unfair to label Noahs Ark as a bad zoo, it is far from it.

    If you were able to look past the religious undertones (as they seem to bother you greatly), I'd hope that you would change your mind. Not that it really matters, but of late, the religion side of things has certainly taken a step back...

    Just a thought -You could say that for Howletts or Port Lympne are a bad zoo if partly judging a zoo by its owner as Damian is heavily Anti-zoo (clearly, neither are bad zoos).

    My point - Noahs isn't a bad zoo :)
     
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  16. ShonenJake13

    ShonenJake13 Well-Known Member

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    For Hungary I would either add Sosto or replace Budapest with it...I’d also add Cabarceno, Vallee des Singes (especially if Apenheul is in there, as it is Apenheul but five times better), Paignton, Crocodiles of the World, Dublin and possibly Parco Natura Viva.
     
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  17. Shirokuma

    Shirokuma Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t been there and would not go there. I also chose not to go to Howletts or Port Lympne anymore despite very much liking certain elements of both collections.

    For me there is something absolutely existentially problematic about a zoo that puts forward unscientific rubbish about creationism. Unless they have rejected this entirely and no longer have any kind of Christian mission they remain, in my opinion, a bad zoo.
     
  18. ThomasNotTom

    ThomasNotTom Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I agree with Cabarceno, it's the first zoo that comes to mind when I think "Spain". I'll always say that Paignton should make the list (for obvious reasons) :p
     
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  19. ThomasNotTom

    ThomasNotTom Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    So your whole basis of labelling them as a "bad zoo" is because of the religious undertones, and no other reason?
     
  20. Shirokuma

    Shirokuma Well-Known Member

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    Correct.