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France bans killer whale breeding

Discussion in 'France' started by lintworm, 7 May 2017.

  1. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    A new law in France forbids the breeding of killer whales and puts restriction on the breeding of bottlenose dolphins. Additionally enclosure standards have been updated: 3500 square meters and a minimum depth of 11 meters for killer whales and 2000 square meters and a minimum depth of 6 meters for dolphins. They officially have 3 years to implement these new standards, breeding of dolphins will only be allowed if the enclosure is big enough....

    Currently there are 4 killer whales in France and 3 parks with bottlenose dolphins (and 1 in French Polynesia which is also affected).

    Captivity conditions for whales and dolphins set to improve
     
  2. Loxodonta Cobra

    Loxodonta Cobra Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Beat me to it. I did not expect this coming at all from France. Are there other cetacean species in captivity in France that may also be affected?
     
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  3. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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  4. Arizona Docent

    Arizona Docent Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I wonder if this order could be reversed if Le Pen wins today's controversial election in France?
     
  5. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    There seems to be quite some confusion about that in the newspapers, but given the updated text in the law:

    Arrêté du 3 mai 2017 fixant les caractéristiques générales et les règles de fonctionnement des établissements présentant au public des spécimens vivants de cétacés | Legifrance

    and this quote from Le Monde (a major French newspaper):

    Avis de tempête sur les delphinariums. L’arrêté interministériel sur « les règles de fonctionnement des établissements détenant des cétacés » a été publié au Journal officiel samedi 6 mai avec un changement majeur : la reproduction des orques et des dauphins détenus en France est désormais interdite, de même que les échanges avec d’autres bassins. Ce qui signifie, à terme, l’arrêt de la captivité de ces animaux dans le pays.

    It seems that there has been a last minute change that it is indeed forbidden to breed dolphins too.
     
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  6. kiang

    kiang Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    An ambitious move from what is now the or soon will be former government, my heart disagrees, but my head agrees with this legislation, with the biggest impact surely felt in Antibes.
     
  7. zoomaniac

    zoomaniac Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Well, the Grande Nation shows their power against a few delphinarias, but is not able to consquently stopp fishing by trawlers, the disturbance (and deadly beaching) of whales thru their own submarine/navy, the pollution of the seas, nuclear refuse etc., etc., etc., which all have a much bigger impact to the cetacean-population then delphinarias all over the world. Not to mention a few hundred employees that will lose their jobs, because some Insitutions (specially Marineland Antibes) will close for good in near future.
     
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  8. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if everyone has noticed it, but this is actually the beginning of the end of the Cetaceans in"Captivity". I am convinced that many dolphinariums will be closed in the coming years. Dolphin welfare is undisputed an end-of-life model, but no worry, the two last zoos that they will stop keep dolphins in europe and continue to lock up this animals ( Captivity !) will be Nürnberg and Duisburg

    .The argument with the jobs is very good. Reason enough not to end the welfare of fur animals for the fur industry and factory farming of cattle and pigs for the meat industry, as thousands of people earn their livelihood with it.

    And, by the way, what's wrong with the ending of the captivity of cetaceans ? Always remember, captivity is negative...because it means the state or period of being held, imprisoned, enslaved, or confined. Doesn't sounds so good to me. Animals in Zoos are defenitely locked. I So everybody who is using the term "captivity"when it comes to animal welfare in Zoos, agrees with its defintion. So this is the law of human language, isn't it ? So why using a word, when I do not belive in that what it means ?

    So always I hear or read this term, I think of Alcatraz....:)I like it so much, especially if even zoo peole or in zoos interested people talk about"Animals in Captivity". So what animal rightners may think, if even zoo people are saying, zoo animals are prisioners ? And they do, if they talk about"Dolphins in Captivity".

    There is a nice story about a young german Zoo Animal keeper. She has her own private webside, telling the people what she is doing in her life and why she had become a Zookeeper. So she wrote:"It is becoming clear again and again: zookeeper is not a profession, but a vocation! In my life there is nothing else and with my passion I want to make the animals the time in captivity as pleasant as possible"A few years ago, another german Zookeepr said excactly the same, even worse, to a reporter of a newspaper. She gaves him an interview, what was published the next day...I would like to know what her chief was thinking about it...

    I love it so much. From my point of view, both girls should return to school and repeat her zoo keeper training-there is something both missed in their first training.

    I respect and accept the french decision as I do the same with Seaworlds decision to stop breeding Orcas-altough I normally agree with Cetaceans in human care.;) The world will continue to turn around, even without dolphins and"Killer"whales in"Captivity".
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2017
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  9. zoomaniac

    zoomaniac Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    And will even turn around with or without Cetaceans in nature - oh, sorry, in not-captivity - and even with or without elephants, polar bears, tigers, red river hogs etc.? But should that be the goal???

    By the way: The word "captivity" is just shorter then "animals in human care", so it will be used even by zoo-pros. Is that so hard to understand? (Of course, I appologize if I have engaged your feelings by using it).
     
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  10. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Well-Known Member

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    Yes, indeed, it is really hard to understand, if "-Pro-Zoo"people, which should actually know better, using the term"Captivity", what makes it clear, zoo animals , robbed their freedom, do live and suffer in Jail houses-and I would say, noboboy like it to live in"Captivity". With that, you play the ball to the Animal rightneres-and they really like it.

    Another great argument-using the term"captivty" only because it is shorter than"in human care". Do you have any idea, why zoo-professionals do not use it this term, even"in human care"or"Menschenobhut"is so unbelivable much longer to write than"captivity"or"Gefangenschaft"? No, this is nonsense. As I said, if you are not belive in the meaning of a word, you shouldn't use ist....and we all know what"Captivity"means-wouldn't you agree ?

    Don't worry, noboby is able to engage my feelings in any way.

    Nice to see you still belive in Zoos as the"Ark Noah":)A bit naive, but why not ? We even have people beliving in"Gods", altough they never have seen one. I don't belive Zoos are able to "save "any cetacean species from extinction. By the Way-there are no cetaceans species in"Captivity" who needs that, and the only species which breds succesfully in human care ( hey, I'v written it much quicker than captivity!) are Bottle -Nosed dolphins-one ot the most common dolphin species.

    P:S:The opposite of captivity is not"not-captivity", it is Freedom.;)
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2017
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  11. JM88

    JM88 Member

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    I personally am not a fan when it comes to orca and dolphin captivity. I am actually happy about this because these animals I find are not suited for captivity. Jane Goodall even said it. She basically said she thinks Zoo's are wonderful places for conservation and education while serving as a safe haven to animals when done properly, but she hates the idea of elephants, orcas, and dolphins in captivity. However, I have to partly disagree with the elephant ideology because some zoos are enhancing their exhibits to be more of large free roaming sanctuaries. What's most important to me is animal welfare and the fact of the matter is that orcas and dolphins don't have big and deep naturalistic enclosures. If anything, aquariums should start funding seaside sanctuaries for rehabilitation if they can not make 100+ tall and 20+ acre exhibits. I do understand that these species are under attack but thats why I bring up seaside sanctuaries. People need to be educated, especially the youth, on what great dangers lie for these beautiful animals. I don't think seeing them stuck in tiny enclosure will give anyone hope or encouragement... I think by holding these species in captivity does nothing but give aquariums a bad name, when in reality, they have good intentions (I hope).
     
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  12. zoomaniac

    zoomaniac Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Interesting, I was googeling the word "captivity" with "San Diego Zoo" and found dozens of examples from zoo professionals using this or a related (e. g. captiv-bred) word.....

    Its nice to see that you equate the jobs in fur industry und factory farming with the jobs of animal keepers in zoological institutions... (As long as it is not mine, I don't care, isn't it?)

    Gratulations when you write a 9-digit-word faster then a 13-digit (incl. word spacing). Like most others I'm not that genious. (Of course there is another reason for using "captivity". It is more common and so easier to understand for non-zoo-enthusiasts/experts).
    Freedom? There is no freedom in nature: Also habitats outside zoos and aquarias are limited. You should know that.

    There are no cetacean species in capt.... in human care AT THE MOMENT who need that. But there are scientist thinking about that with vaquitas. And they would be able to fall back to all that knowledge collected with other cetaceans.
    By the way: It is logical that breeding results with bottle-nosed dolphin are more succesfull because of a. their numbers and b. the experience thru the longer and continous time of keeping them.
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2017
  13. zoomaniac

    zoomaniac Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Agree so far that there are a lot of improvements to do. But keep in mind: There will be allways people shouting, that even a mouse in an exhibit in the size of a footballfield "has not enough space".
    Also, you say it right: When you accept IN GENERAL that some animals could be kept in human care and others don't, it is not scientifically based, it is an ideology, even when it comes from a - also from my side - very respected woman like Jane Goodall. It's emotions, not facts.

    Have care: You have used the term "captivity" as well which makes you in the eyes of one member as not competently and not credible....;)
     
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  14. JM88

    JM88 Member

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    Lol I am just trying to keep things simple, captivity has always been in my definition something being kept from running out of an enclosure of some sort. Also, it depends, I mean there are so many exhibits inadequate to support naturalistic and large space for an animal, even mice haha. Animal welfare is a priority, and when I hear of large ocean mammals stuck in aquariums, I cringe. I think maybe not science but evidence has shown that these animals are not suitable for captivity. Just the dorsal fin that flips to the side and reoccurring orca attacks with trainers are signs of distress. Just in general, these animals unlike land animals need depth( Same goes with birds for flying). No aquarium I believe could provide this at least from what I know. So I do get your point, however to me its just general logic that larger animals need bigger space and thats why I completely disagree with this type of, dare I say.... CAPTIVITY hahaha
     
  15. carlos55

    carlos55 Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    In Mexico a similar ban was proposed about 2 months ago for dolphins, manatees and sea lions . It provoked great controversy and was finally suspended in Senate, for now, in part due to the strong opposition of the people of Cancun,which is where most of the dolfinariums are.Many jobs will be lost they said. Dolphinarium owners considered that were being treated as criminals by the proposal. They also mentioned that rescued sea animals could not be rehabilitated without the dolphinariums which is true. The dolphinarium owners considered the breeding ban as cruel to the dolphins and that it would provoke stress to the animals.Captive Dolphins breed very well in Mexico .
     
  16. Merintia

    Merintia Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    I agree that orcas are very complicated animals to keep, and with a so small population and most of them related, was a matter of time they would have dissapeared from captivity. But I don´t see any reason to stop breeding Bottlenose Dolphins. Most of dolphinariums would need improvements, specially about size, but even being a dolphin fan myself, I don´t understand why so many people, even inside the zoo enthusiast people, see them as a so special animals. Because they live in the sea they need enormous spaces? I have seen them on the wild several times, and most part of the time they were just floating lazy or swimming slowly. We keep in captivity many animals that, in fact, moves more than dolphins, like migratory birds or big raptors that uses to fly very high. Are captive vultures miserable in zoos because they can´t fly at 400 metres high? Or are Cheetas stressed because most of their enclosures are not big enough to allow them to reach their maximum speed? I don´t think so. Also, Bottlenose Dolhpins on the Gulf of Mexico, the origin of the main captive population, lives in pretty shallow waters. Probably is their intelligence and social life what makes them more different, but again, I don´t see more problem than to keep other higher social or clever animals like elephants, apes, ravens or parrots. And the fact that their life expectancy is longer in dolphinariums and their succesful breeding must mean something too.

    Also, the ignorance of main people is really desperating. Many people support anti-cap groups because they really think that dolphins in Europe came from Taiji. No matter how do you try to explain, they have seen The Cove and already consider themselves experts on cetaceans and dolphinariums. I´m really pissed off of the reply "if you support dolphinariums, watch The Cove". Is like somebody tried to ask for the end of all orphanages in the world, just because once they watched a documentary about the situation in China or North Corea.
     
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  17. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Well-Known Member

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    You did ? No wonder-this is America...and if I see some of the exhibits at San Diego Zoo, maybe it's not wrong in this case. So please ask german zoopeople what say about"Gefangenschaft"But the term"Captivity"speaks for itselfs, but no word from you about that fact. Its only a"word", without any meaning, isn't it ?

    I didn't compared jobs in the fur industry and factory farming with zoo jobs-Who can read, is clearly in the advantage. Your nice explanation of"Freedom"does not change the fact that freedom is the logical opposite of captivity. So you should know what captivity means, but it seems, you don't

    But I forgot-you are a"Zoo enthuasist", a slong as enough rare species kept in"Captitiy", he world is right for you, isn#t it ? So of course you have to defense Cetaceans in"Captivity". My recommodation for you is a Vvst at Tierpark Donnersberg, one of the now largest"collection"-another great term in relation to Zoos-of"Rarities"in germany. You will love this place, because really every month, they get more rare species. I would like to know, whether you willnotice something there..I bet, you don't. But you will love the"Collection"--in this case, it is literally a Collection....
    .
    As longer a species is kept in captity, the more succesful is the breed...this is logical ? Good Joke, but in the case of bottle-nosed dolphins you forget the extreme high numbers of animals died during the"Making of experince", but the breeding became first in the 80ties more successful...so we don't have to talk about other speices- River dolphins are kept since the 50ties-in more zoos than you know-so a long time to get enough experience in keeping and breeding them. How many young were raised? Two, as far as I know-how many died ? No exccat numbers available, but it were more than a few....

    Or better, elphant seals ! Kept since 1910, hundreds were imported, zoos got so many expericenes in their welfare, but were , or better to say was, the breeding ?

    Musk Ox are kept since the 19.century in"Captivity", but they are still doing very bad in "captive conditions"-, but of course, somtimes a calf grew up succesfully.

    But you have right, as long as they"breed", the welfare is succesful.

    Its unfortunate, there are not yet general international laws to forbid the capture of cetaceans for zoos and dolphinariums, as russia is doing at the moment with orcas for china( disguting), but they are needed. By the way-we need that laws also for other species, elephants for example.
     
  18. zoomaniac

    zoomaniac Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    We were talking about the English term "captivity" not "Gefangenschaft", so you were simply wrong. Instead of blame Americans here I would suggest you to check other zoos in the English speaking world in the internet. You might find more examples of zooexperts using the term "captivity".

    Yes, freedom is the logical opposite of captivity. But now you beat yourself with your own weapons: Freedom is a much stronger term then "outside zoos". Animal right activist would love to hear that from zoo-experts like you....

    Did not mention anything about "enough rare animals in captivity", so no suggestion is required.

    I wrote numbers AND experience! River dolphins were shown only in small numbers (at least compared with bottlenosed dolphins). As you said: Who can read is clearly in adventage.

    See no reason why to compare cetaceans with musk oxen. My example was/is valid for the different cetaceans in cap....oh, so, so, sorry,... human care.
     
  19. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Well-Known Member

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    Oh-where is the diffrence between"captivity"and"Gefangenschaft"? I think, the meaning is the same...

    Where I have blamed Americans ?

    Oh, belive me, I know the"term"captivity"is normally used in the english speaking zooworld-but it doesn't make it or its meaning better, so I'm not simply wrong .I feel so Sorry for every creature what has to live in captivity. So whats your defintion of"Captivity"? Tell me, I want to know. But it dosen't matter anyway, I think, the offical and general defintion is clear enough.

    I haven't beat myself, because I used Freedom not in relation to zoos, I only told you the term"Freedom"ist the opposite of"captivity . From a logical point of view, if you mean-and you do!. zoo animals live in captivity, so the result of this, the"Freedom" of zoo animals was taken away...Nice, but naive try.

    Animal right activists are humans, too, and not more worse than fanatic"Pro-Zoos"enthuasists--like you...I have no problems with them ( I had in the past, but not anymore), but I like to watch the war between them and the Pro-Zoos-Guys..its very funny, to follow all attacks of both sides., and it never comes to an end. Best and free entertainment.

    Unfortunately you didn't understand my example with Musk oxen. Again, as I wrote... who can read..

    By the way-River dolphins were shown in smaller numbers-I agree-but captured in high numbers...most of them died until they raeched their final destiation, many others shortly after arrvial..and just one survived out of all these. Fact is-the Bottle-nosed dolphin is the only locked cetacean which is breeding"succesfully". But for what-only for Display Reasons. And this is the only reason why cetaceans were and still kept in CAPTIVITY.
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2017
  20. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I would be nice if you could stop your rant on details, because you are hindering a potentially very interesting discussion.... Merintia's post for example is interesting and adds somethig to the discussion and I wish I could say the same on the rest of the posts here....
     
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