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Noah's Ark Zoo Farm Giraffes

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Nisha, 15 Oct 2010.

  1. Nisha

    Nisha Well-Known Member

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  2. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    Unless some zoo is acting in contravention of all European giraffe transfers?

    I cannot phantom that any zoo is outside the reticulated giraffe EEP.
    If these are, they are not pure-breds ...
     
  3. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    I think the comment was that this female resembles a Reticulated, rather than actually being pure. Hybrids with Reticulated blood usually have the network pattern and my guess would be this is one of those.
     
  4. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    Hi Pertinax,

    Perhaps my statement was not that clear, but - must be hybrids only as the EEP has strict policy of same sex hybrids to forego any potential further breeding of hybrids - is clearly what was meant by me.

    The only thing I am unsure of is whether NAZF are participating in the Giraffe EEP. My current assumption is that they are not.

    K.B.
     
  5. OrangePerson

    OrangePerson Well-Known Member

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    It's not clear to me, you seem to be saying they must be hybrids because the EEP has a policy of same sex hybrids so they can't breed - but they aren't the same sex. :confused:
     
  6. zoogiraffe

    zoogiraffe Well-Known Member

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    The current EEP policy on Hybrid Giraffes is that they should only be kept in a single sex group,or mixed if they are in a none breeding situation.If I`m wrong i`m sure the EEP stud-book holder will let me know next time we catch up.
    Last time I saw a zoo a list of collections working within the EEP Noahs were not listed on it,seeing as that was about 6 months ago it could have changed but I`m pretty certain it hasn`t.
     
  7. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member

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    These are the basic guidelines:
    A) The EEP prescribes with hybrids that only single sex specimens are kept to discourage any further breeding of undesirable offspring.
    B) The EEP also prescribes that only with pure-breds are recommended for a breeding group situation.
    C) The EEP further prescribes no interbreeding or hybridisation of giraffids. Consequently, when transferring out/in no hybrid potential M/F combinations may be build up (whereas the no. of hybrid births is decreasing, it unfortunately still occurs and occupies valuable spaces very much needed for pure-bred breeding groups). It is advised to have any hybrids vasectomised / sterilised on transfer.

    This whole policy is designed to only breed along scientifically recognised and valid breeding lines AND maintain pure-bred giraffid stocks in EAZA collections.

    For any zoo wishing to cooperate it must follow these guidelines. What usually happens is that a new zoo will acquire first a hybrid single sex group in order to relieve current giraffe groups working towards establishing a full breeding group of a particular ssp. the accomodation to do so, while allowing any hybrids or unknowns to be transported out to non-breeding locations (effectively single sex).

    As NAZF does have a male hybrid and has now - from one source or another we do not know about - acquired another giraffe, I have assumed that while it is not observing any of these EEP guidelines it would be highly incongruent for it to be an active participant in the EAZA Giraffe EEP.

    I admit the latter is somewhat speculative, but seeing how NAZF has moved on similar dealings with other endangered taxa (e.g. the white rhino in a 1M/1F combo where the EEP requires 2M/3F minimum + proper accomodation, design and management regime) it is highly unlikely.

    Anyhow, hopefully soon we will find out where this mysterious E.European female came from ... ;)!
     
  8. OrangePerson

    OrangePerson Well-Known Member

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    There was never any claim that the female is pure-bred and the male is hybrid. They don't mention breeding - can't they vasectomise the male or something?
     
  9. mhale

    mhale Well-Known Member

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    I asked NAZF on their Facebook page where Genevieve came from and they told me that it was the Czech Republic.
     
  10. johnstoni

    johnstoni Well-Known Member

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    I suspect the 4-year wait for a suitable companion for this giraffe is a very strong indicator as to their intentions. I would be very surprised if they were unable to come across other male hybrid giraffes from closer to home that the Czech republic. It's telling that this animal is a female and took so long to find.
     
  11. zoogiraffe

    zoogiraffe Well-Known Member

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    Well i think we can pretty much guess where it came from and the fact that they had to buy it then,and not have it sent to them on breeding loan.Sadily if I`m right about where this Giraffe has come from it means its a pure Reticulated been brought into pair up with a Hybrid male.
     
    Last edited: 16 Oct 2010
  12. Javan Rhino

    Javan Rhino Well-Known Member

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    I don't fully understand how it all works with zoo licenses etc, but could they not have a license taken off them for ignoring the rules stated, or can they only be kicked out of the EEP if the rules stated by KB are ignored?
    Is there no zoo with Retics (zootierlist shows Colchester, South Lakes, Whipsnade and P. Lympne in England) that could offer a swap.
    Again with Zootierlist, it shows S. Lakes and P. Lympne also have hybrids, could one of these not send a hybrid to Noah's Ark ZF, in exchange for the pure retic? Not only would it solve the problem of a pure being used to breed hybrids, but it would move these particular collections closer towards a pure herd.

    Of course, this whole thing is if zoogiraffe is indeed right. If she is a hybrid, then no problem :)
     
  13. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    I see what you mean and yes, if so she must be pure Reticulated. NAZ presumably wanted a female and finally got one. I don't know if they intend to breed from them or not now, but either way it is a waste of this purebred female.
     
  14. Goretex

    Goretex Well-Known Member

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    We all know what NAZF are like when it comes to breeding. they'd probably rather breed with a hybred than a purebred.:p
     
  15. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Colchester only have pure Reticulateds now(1.2)- no hybrid to offer as a swap
    Whipsnade- ditto.
    Port Lympne. do not breed them so unsuitable to receive a female.
    South Lakes- not sure of current situation.

    I think you can take it Zoogiraffe is correct on this as he normally is. I very much doubt having waited 4 years and having just undergone the delicate operation of transporting this animal from Eastern Europe that NAZ would be prepared to start moving/exchanging her again either.:(
     
  16. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Its certainly unusual to see this approach nowadays. A hybrid companion or two-either sex- would have seemed the preferable option for their male.(that's provided this female is pure)
     
  17. johnstoni

    johnstoni Well-Known Member

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    I think we have to be careful in how we think about the importance of breeding programmes. Would you really like UK zoos to be compelled to hold species, and numbers of individuals, exactly according to a central body else have their licence revoked?

    Many people applaud Howletts and Port Lympne for not handing over their collections to managed programmes for many years, in fact I feel the isolationist approach in some ways has been the root of their success with Black rhinoceros and Lowland gorilla.

    As much as I disaprove of some of the decisions apparently taken by Noah's ark, I defend their right to make those decisions as long as individual animal welfare is not compromised. The worst outcome is that they should have to work to remedy those choices in order to be able to access BIAZA once again.
     
  18. Blossom

    Blossom Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for any breeding programme there has to be a degree of coordination, otherwise it would just be chaos. If Noah's Ark do breed hybrid griaffe then they will surely be over burdening the space that zoos have left for holding pure giraffe. Coordination, which by its very nature requries a central body, is the only way forward (long term). Sure, in the short-term zoos could do what they wanted with their animals, keep what species they wanted, but it always comes back full circle. Smarter people than me have decided that coordinated breeding programmes are the best method, and I trust them.
     
    Last edited: 16 Oct 2010
  19. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Potentially yes. But with a single pair they are unlikely to produce large numbers of surplus. The most they will have in five years if there's successful breeding, and with no losses, is the pair and maybe two calves, which they could no doubt accomodate as a small family group staying at the park.

    I do think its a pity a purebred(?) female has been sourced for this though.
     
  20. zoogiraffe

    zoogiraffe Well-Known Member

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    Got to be in an EEP to be kicked out and they were not involved in the Giraffe EEP on the last list of collections working with the EEP that i saw.
    Actual even if she is a Hybrid this is still not good as it means that yet another collection is producing Hybrid Giraffes for no good reasom other than getting visitors through the doors when a baby is born.